Ball bearing turbos

[Pang]

What are some good size ball bearing turbos for 1.6 to 2.0 liter engines?? I know they spool a bit quiker than the journal type bearing but is it really worth the extra cash?

[deadly dsm]

Talk to AGP and Forced Performance about the new GT series.

http://www.agpturbo.com/
Talk to Kevin or Ben.

FP has already dyno'd 550hp and 650hp with their new FP3055 and FP3065 turbos based on the new GT30 CHRA.

http://www.forcedperformance.net/
Talk to Robert or Brian.

[Derrickcxhatch]

i think the gt20 is a good size for honda's it should hit full boost at 3,000RPM's. But it might not be efficint with high boosting.

[Brian]

I don't know that a gt20 is large enough for good top end. A gt 25 is probably a good fit for a 1.6-1.8 with good hp.

[Brian]

http://www.club18t.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1694

Go to the thread above. It's a short write up I did about reading compressor maps. It will help you figure out what turbo matches your criteria.

[TedR719]

Very Nice!

Originally posted by 1EightT
http://www.club18t.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1694

Go to the thread above. It's a short write up I did about reading compressor maps. It will help you figure out what turbo matches your criteria.

[V8SpankR]

Isn't longevity decreased with a ball bearing turbo?

[Dallas J]

Originally posted by 1EightT
http://www.club18t.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1694

Go to the thread above. It's a short write up I did about reading compressor maps. It will help you figure out what turbo matches your criteria.

I have a question about that...

To find the pressure ratio you add 1bar. Is it 1bar cause thats what atmospheric pressure is? If so then would you have to use 11.7 for this altitude?

-Dallas J

[Brian]

Correct it is for atmospheric pressure. Most of those guys are at sea level so I just used the standard. Definetly be sure to use 11.7 for Colorado though. Thanks for pointing that out :D

[Dallas J]

Originally posted by 1EightT
Correct it is for atmospheric pressure. Most of those guys are at sea level so I just used the standard. Definetly be sure to use 11.7 for Colorado though. Thanks for pointing that out :D

Cool, Ive never learned how to read maps, and this helps alot.
One other question is do you know what clipping changes on the map? Porting? Or will those produce a different map.
Thanks.
-Dallas J

[stu]

Excellent write up Brian, but you have your x-axis and your y-axis backwards, the numbers and descriptions are correct, you just need to switch the labels in your descriptions.

Also, Dallas, I was under the impression that up here people use 12.9 as the atmospheric pressure, but I am not positive.

[Dallas J]

I just found a great site about atmospheric/barometric pressure.

http://www.cleandryair.com/AltitudePressure.htm

According to the site, from between 5000-6000 ft you atmospheric pressure will be 12.23-11.78.

-Dallas J

[exciv2000]

Originally posted by Dallas J
I just found a great site about atmospheric/barometric pressure.

http://www.cleandryair.com/AltitudePressure.htm

According to the site, from between 5000-6000 ft you atmospheric pressure will be 12.23-11.78.

-Dallas J

Using that, the atmospheric pressure at Bandimere (5800 feet) should be right around 11.87

[GimPin]

I have heard that BB turbo's don't last as long I am considering buying the AGP L2R..... does any one know if this is true??

[stu]

Why wouldn't they last as long, there is less friction on the bearings. If anything, they should last longer.

[GimPin]

that is what I thought but I am just asking about what I have heard on several ocations

[Talonstylz]

anyone know where i can find compressor maps for a 14b?? Wanna see what it can max out at :) Thanks

[Tra2xx]

I'm hoping to get a ball bearing turbo sometime in the future, and from what I've heard:
Spool time really is decreased a good amount
A good portion of them love to run high PSI
The ball bearing set up is pretty trustworthy (I suggest Garrett for the center section
They are expensive and have delicate needs (like the turbo oil line filter)

Turbo magazine also did a write up this month I read, it explained it pretty well. Brian's is worded a little bit differently from the original article and makes things easier to understand for the most part, good job decoding some of it :)

[stu]

Paul, let me know if you find those compressor maps, I've been looking for them for a while.

[deadly dsm]

The 14b will be useless up here at 17 psi, even with a front mount intercooler. Forget about it with pump gas, with race fuel tuned for the track low 13's are doable. It has posted a 12.99 run on a perfect run, lightened car, etc.

Some Mitsu comp. maps have been online at the DSM FAQ site for awhile now.

True bb centers like low oil pressure fed to them. Any contamination of the oil in the bearings leads to a rapid death of the bearings. A filter for the turbo oil feed line has pros and cons. The pro is that it'll keep out the nasties, the con is literally, what if it plugs up?

Spool-up isn't always reduced in some cases, proper tuning and a decent supporting set-up have alot to do with this also.

Once the CHRA is messed up, it's garbage and not rebuildable like a 16g can be.

High psi depends on which set-up/combo you choose.

Being able to see the GT Series turbine wheel flow maps is just freakin' huge. ;)

[gothemperf]

Originally posted by Dallas J
According to the site, from between 5000-6000 ft you atmospheric pressure will be 12.23-11.78.

That’s if the temperature is 41-38 degrees Fahrenheit though. If one were really motivated a more accurate way of calculating atmospheric pressure would be to take the average of the yearly mean barometric pressure of various locations of varying elevation around the Denver metro area(or where ever you live) and derive a figure from that. It probably wont be very beneficial in terms of accuracy in the very generalized situation of plotting compressor maps though.

Originally posted by Talonstylz
anyone know where i can find compressor maps for a 14b?? Wanna see what it can max out at :) Thanks

http://www.stealth316.com/2-3s-compflowmaps.htm MHI maps in CFM and m^3/s.

Originally posted by Dallas J
One other question is do you know what clipping changes on the map? Porting? Or will those produce a different map.

Porting and clipping are modifications done to the turbine, which have no effect what so ever on the compressor map.

Originally posted by GimPin
I have heard that BB turbo's don't last as long

Ball bearings allow greater thrust loading than conventional plain bearing turbos(Garrett claims 50 times as much), which means there should be greater resistance to thrust bearing related failure.

[davidm_sh]

For what it's worth TEC told me BB turbos, while nice when they work, are not rebuildable like say a non BB turbo. ALSO I ran a IHI VF22 turbo (Ball bearing 430cfm flow or so) and now I run a Mitsu 18G (~600cfm flow) and I see the same or maybe just a bit better spool up with the 18G. Tuning and other components in your system do make quite a difference in that area. And I know they are pretty difference turbos and technology but just to give you some idea of how a smaller BB can compare to a larger non-BB turbo.

Also my piggy back ECU (UTEC) reads vacuum and positive boost in terms of psi (I know fairly unconventional for vacuum) BUT lately when it has been colder out my MAP sensor reads about -3.8psi (the piggyback ECU was calibrated at sea level) So what that means is take sea level atmoshperic pressure of ~14.7psi subtract off 3.8psi and you are left with ~11.1psi (in Colorado Springs ~ 6000ft. above sea level). Normally I would see -3.4 to -3.6psi when it gets a bit warmer which I thought was backwards since we are supposed to get less atomspheric pressure when its warmer out? I thought thats the way it worked anyway [shrug]. Anyone know for sure how temp affects atmospheric pressure in terms of +/-?

[gothemperf]

Originally posted by davidm_sh
Anyone know for sure how temp affects atmospheric pressure in terms of +/-?

Hot(less dense) = -pressure
Cold(more dense) = +pressure

[Dallas J]

actually david, I dont think your vacuume has to do with absolute pressure. Sure the pressure outside will effect it, but so will things like compression, vacuume leaks. If you have a map sensor what does it read when the cars off? Does it read absolute pressure? If so whats the absolute pressure when running say 20psi. Most boost guages just read positive pressure, but some map sensors read in absolute.

-Dallas J

[davidm_sh]

Originally posted by gothemperf
Hot(less dense) = -pressure
Cold(more dense) = +pressure

Thats what I thought but so far I have seen the oppositte of that effect lately. VEry slighy oppositte but none the less

[davidm_sh]

Originally posted by Dallas J
If you have a map sensor what does it read when the cars off? Does it read absolute pressure? If so whats the absolute pressure when running say 20psi. Most boost guages just read positive pressure, but some map sensors read in absolute.

-Dallas J

That is what I was trying to say in my last post. When the car is off the MAP sensor reads at about -3.6 or -3.8psi so that is how much we are losing compared to sea level where the software was calibrated. So when I am boosting 19-20psi (on my autometer boost gauge) I am reading about 16-17psi on my MAP sensor roughly.

[SleeperZ]

Originally posted by Dallas J
Most boost guages just read positive pressure, but some map sensors read in absolute.

-Dallas J

MAP = Manifold Absolute Pressure

All MAP sensors read in absolute pressure.

[Dallas J]

Originally posted by SleeperZ
MAP = Manifold Absolute Pressure

All MAP sensors read in absolute pressure.

lol...you have to excuse me. The army packed up all my stuff and all I have now is my computer...Im going nutz in here. But yeah I knew that:eek:

-Dallas J