$2000 budget, what parts to get?

[TedR719]

Help me try to piece togehter a turbo kit for my b16 hybrid 92 hatchback with a/c. I do have a Walbro 255lph fuel pump and I can't afford a standalone at this time. So with $2000 what can I get?

Turbo
Mainfold
Intercooler
Wastegate
BOV
Piping
Downpipe
FMU
Braided Oil Send Line
Check Valves

So far this is what I was thinking

t3/t4e 50 trim, with .48 exhaust Turbo (?)
Rev Hard Manifold
Intercooler (?)
Tial Wastegate .45 bar
BOV
Custom Piping
Rev Hard Downpipe
Vortech FMU 12:1
Braided Oil Send Line (?)
Check Valves (?)

[stu]

You are on the right track, I've been doing research for literally months now, and that is the exact turbo I am thinking. If you want, the next time there is a meet or something, I could lend you some of my turbo books.

[BoraTurbo]

This is what i would do...

Rebuilt t3/t4e from TEC...$400
MandSproduction custom downpipe, manifold, and piping...$???
tial 35mm wastegate


Mark can build you the down pipe, all piping, and probobly the manifold for a good price.

[TedR719]

Where is more info on those rebuilt turbos from TEC? Website and where to order?

Thanks :D


Originally posted by BoraTurbo
This is what i would do...

Rebuilt t3/t4e from TEC...$400
MandSproduction custom downpipe, manifold, and piping...$???
tial 35mm wastegate


Mark can build you the down pipe, all piping, and probobly the manifold for a good price.

[ryanman]

I got a T4/T04B turbo I'll sell ya pretty cheap.

[TedR719]

Isn't that a preety big turbo for a 1.6L? How cheap?

Originally posted by ryanman
I got a T4/T04B turbo I'll sell ya pretty cheap.

[ryanman]

Originally posted by futuresi
Isn't that a preety big turbo for a 1.6L? How cheap? Hehe, yeah prolly a little big. Not sure on price. Couple hundred bucks. It's in pretty good shape.

[CSMsi311]

man. I wish I put together my own turbo kit. Instead of the Vortech FMU you could use a SMC+ with bigger injectors. This is what I'm running right now. Hopefully I'll be getting it tuned in a few weeks and I'll post the results.

SMC+ $130 shipped
DSM injectors are relatively cheap

Jason

[TedR719]

So far this is the new list...

Piping/Intercooler (from Mark)
t3/t4 TEC Turbo
MaxRev Manifold
Tial Wastegate
BOV (?)
Oil Line
Hondata

So far without the Hondata is just about $2000, So I might need to find a used manifold since they go for about $400...unless I could find one for cheaper...

We will see, it's really tight but if I can do it I will, if not all motor for me and some extra cash in hand.

[TedR719]

I could also go with a FMU and check valves but not too sure on how reliable that setup would be... That would put me right on budget with the setup if I went that route...

[ohshitshun]

if you go all motor i will kick you off the board my self and kick your ass dont be dumb.

[TedR719]

:D I will go all motor just for you ;)

Originally posted by ohshitshun
if you go all motor i will kick you off the board my self and kick your ass dont be dumb.

[DnVr]

I have a turbo that I would just donate to you. you probably wouldnt be able to use it though. It came on my jdm motor. its a td04 its about the same size as a t25 or just a tad bigger. anyway its in good shape if anyone has a use for it let me know.

[stu]

Originally posted by DnVr
I have a turbo that I would just donate to you. you probably wouldnt be able to use it though. It came on my jdm motor. its a td04 its about the same size as a t25 or just a tad bigger. anyway its in good shape if anyone has a use for it let me know.
I'll take it if Ted doesn't!

[GimPin]

you are forgetting intercooler...... if you are not trying to make it look all pretty you could get a supra side mount ..... that is suppose to be a really efficient intercooler... you can ususaly pick them up for about $150 if you can find them

[GimPin]

by the way if you find one and dont decide to buy it I need one so if anybody has one..........

[SleeperZ]

I think you are on the right track with the Hondata computer, and forgetting about the POS FMU. I suppose they work OK for a car that uses a MAP sensor and a temperature sensor to infer air mass (like Honda), but a good 1:1 boost referenced FPR and a tunable EFI is the way to go , IMHO.

By the way, how well does a T3 .48 A/R work with that massive TO4E 50 trim compressor? That is the compressor I'd like to run, but I've heard the T3 turbine can get restrictive, and not drive the compressor wheel efficiently...

[Brian]

Originally posted by DnVr
I have a turbo that I would just donate to you. you probably wouldnt be able to use it though. It came on my jdm motor. its a td04 its about the same size as a t25 or just a tad bigger. anyway its in good shape if anyone has a use for it let me know.

I'm interested :D

[DnVr]

in all fairness, I offered it to ted first, if he doesnt want it I would like to give it to someone whos going to use it. and someone who races with our team at cc!

[exciv2000]

Originally posted by DnVr
in all fairness, I offered it to ted first, if he doesnt want it I would like to give it to someone whos going to use it. and someone who races with our team at cc!

Brian got ;OwnEd; on that one, heheh ;)

[RedZMonte]

Originally posted by futuresi
I could also go with a FMU and check valves but not too sure on how reliable that setup would be... That would put me right on budget with the setup if I went that route...
Mark is running 13's with that setup. He also knows where to get a Saab T3 cheap!

Mark and myself can do a downpipe, turbo piping and help with the install at a reasonable price. I can get a good deal through TEC if you want me to check on a trubo, I do a fair ammount of business threw them and they seem to treat me good on prices. If you want a new turbo i have a few sources as well. I can also get good deals on an inter cooler. As for an intercooler i would check ebay. there are some good deals... Starion/Conquest front mount intercoolers seem to bee decent for ~$150. Let me or mark know if you need anything.

Shane "RedZMonte"
970-214-1670

[TedR719]

I think I will slowly put together something, for now I will run all motor and pay off some debt and get some other stuff. I just hate putting every past penny into this car and have no money for anyhting eles :)

I can get that turbo from ryan and go from there :)

[ShervRacer]

saabs are the best cars that have parts good enoguh to use... i want a saab 900 intercooler... its gonna be cheap... ill just have to clean it....

[RedZMonte]

Originally posted by futuresi

I can get that turbo from ryan and go from there :)

TD04 is a good turbo.. it should make you dominate the streets. it spools instantly but it does run out of steam on the top end.

[TedR719]

What are the specs on this turbo, I would love to have a quick spool for around town...

Originally posted by RedZMonte
TD04 is a good turbo.. it should make you dominate the streets. it spools instantly but it does run out of steam on the top end.

[DnVr]

Originally posted by RedZMonte
TD04 is a good turbo.. it should make you dominate the streets. it spools instantly but it does run out of steam on the top end. the td04 should spool mad quick and imo would be a good turbo for a high revving honda because it would make up what hondas need and thats low end torque!
I was just looking at it and it shouldnt be hard to hook up to a manifold seeing it has a flat 4 bolt square fitting that faces straight up to the bottom of a manifold . also Ted it has an o2 sensor housing bolted to it already.
the turbo came off my jdm motor which had very low miles on it and appears to be in near new condition.
let me know next time you or one of your friends will be in my area so you can pick it up.
think all you really need now is to have mark hook up a manifold and downpipe.
you could pick up an intercooler from a junkyard and have this shit spinning without to much trouble.

[DnVr]

Originally posted by futuresi
What are the specs on this turbo, I would love to have a quick spool for around town... http://home.xtra.co.nz/hosts/vision/tc.htm

[TedR719]

Thanks, I just have to locate a manifold that will work on my car and the other stuff should not be a problem :)

Originally posted by DnVr
the td04 should spool mad quick and imo would be a good turbo for a high revving honda because it would make up what hondas need and thats low end torque!
I was just looking at it and it shouldnt be hard to hook up to a manifold seeing it has a flat 4 bolt square fitting that faces straight up to the bottom of a manifold . also Ted it has an o2 sensor housing bolted to it already.
the turbo came off my jdm motor which had very low miles on it and appears to be in near new condition.
let me know next time you or one of your friends will be in my area so you can pick it up.
think all you really need now is to have mark hook up a manifold and downpipe.
you could pick up an intercooler from a junkyard and have this shit spinning without to much trouble.

[stu]

Ted, if you want, when I get home from work I can do some calculations from the graphs in my turbo book and get you some approximate numbers for how much air your motor will flow with and without boost. Knowing these numbers makes it A LOT easier to select a turbo.

[TedR719]

Yeah defintaly if you want to do that...



Originally posted by stu
Ted, if you want, when I get home from work I can do some calculations from the graphs in my turbo book and get you some approximate numbers for how much air your motor will flow with and without boost. Knowing these numbers makes it A LOT easier to select a turbo.

[allmotor_civic]

Originally posted by futuresi
So far this is what I was thinking

t3/t4e 50 trim, with .48 exhaust Turbo (?)
Rev Hard Manifold
Intercooler (?)
Tial Wastegate .45 bar
BOV
Custom Piping
Rev Hard Downpipe
Vortech FMU 12:1
Braided Oil Send Line (?)
Check Valves (?)

My version of this list would look more like...
T3/T4 (the trim listed would be suitable)
($700)
"Shorty" style cast-iron manifold (we carry them Ted)
($300)
Spearco Air/Air FMIC (22"/4"/3") small but efficient
($400)
Deltagate (7 psi spring)
($190)
BOV (personal choice)
($???)
Piping (doesn't matter so long as there are no crimp bent pipes)
Custom Downpipe (2.5")
($250)
Vortech FMU (12:1) works well
($170)
Oil line from block
($45)
Return line welded onto oil pan
($35)
Rubber oil return line
($3)
Missing Link
($90)

So at about $2200 you have a completely new setup (minus a BOV) that is very proven (we made 300 plus whp with the addition of a V-AFC and 310cc Injectors). I personally believe the TD04 (T28?) is too small for almost any setup...especially on a high rev B16. You'll lose (usable efficient) boost around 6500 RPM. If you run a decent T3/T4 you'll make boost well past redline (about 8900 RPM).
If you can find a clean used T3/T4 or T3/T04E I would suggest looking in that direction.
Good luck,
Dan

[shane]

.60 C/.48 T T3 turbo, whatever manifold and little parts you want, some kind of intercooler, and a 100 shot of nitrous :D

[TedR719]

That's what I was thinking as well, the "(usable efficient)" as you said in the top end, it would spool up like a bat out of hell but when I get to redline it's not going to be that great... I would think this turbo would be great on a d16 however.

Originally posted by allmotor_civic
My version of this list would look more like...
T3/T4 (the trim listed would be suitable)
($700)
"Shorty" style cast-iron manifold (we carry them Ted)
($300)
Spearco Air/Air FMIC (22"/4"/3") small but efficient
($400)
Deltagate (7 psi spring)
($190)
BOV (personal choice)
($???)
Piping (doesn't matter so long as there are no crimp bent pipes)
Custom Downpipe (2.5")
($250)
Vortech FMU (12:1) works well
($170)
Oil line from block
($45)
Return line welded onto oil pan
($35)
Rubber oil return line
($3)
Missing Link
($90)

So at about $2200 you have a completely new setup (minus a BOV) that is very proven (we made 300 plus whp with the addition of a V-AFC and 310cc Injectors). I personally believe the TD04 (T28?) is too small for almost any setup...especially on a high rev B16. You'll lose (usable efficient) boost around 6500 RPM. If you run a decent T3/T4 you'll make boost well past redline (about 8900 RPM).
If you can find a clean used T3/T4 or T3/T04E I would suggest looking in that direction.
Good luck,
Dan

[stu]

Skip the deltagate though.

[stu]

Okay Ted, sorry it took so long, but I was out running over animals all night. So I went ahead and assumed that your motor was a 1.6 liter and redlined at 8,500rpm (which I just now realized is a little too high I think, but you should still be able to use these numbers.) In my book there is a chart that shows how much air an engine will flow at a certain rpm for how big it is. The chart has engine sizes from 0 - 600 cubic inches on the bottom and 0 - 10 liters on the top. The graph shows how much CFM (cubic feet per minute) of air each engine will flow at 80%. That is what is nice about this gragh, it helps you use more realistic numbers since most engine don't flow at 100%. It is also nice because you can compare engine sizes from liters to CID with out doing any math.

--So anyway, the graph shows that your car will flow 235CFM at 80% @ 8,500rpm (so a little high).

The next graph shows pressure ratio vs. density ratio, on the x and y axis respectively. On this graph, there are two lines drawn that are 60% and 70% compresor effeciencies (since that is where most turbos operate, so this also helps you use more realistic numbers) What I do is choose between the two lines and use a 65% compressor efficiency (which is a little low if you ask me) and match up the pressure ratio to to find the density ratio.

How To Find Pressure Ratio
--> The pressure ratio is essentially just another way to express boost presure, but in terms that can be used when looking at compressor maps.
To find the pressure ratio of say 7psi for example, you add Ambient Atmospheric Pressure to Boost pressure, then you divide by Ambient Atmospheric Pressure. Atmospheric Pressure at sea level is 14.3, but since we are located at roughly 5,000ft, we will use 12.9 instead. So your equation should look like this. (12.9+7)/(12.9). This gives you a pressure ratio of 1.54. Now that you have that number, you match it up to 65% compressor effciency on the graph, draw a horizontal line to the y-axis and get a Density Ratio of 1.28.

The Density Ratio
--> The Density Ratio is used to find out how much air your motor will flow under that specific amount of boost (in this case 7psi).
So if you take the N/A flow (235 CFM) and multiply it by the density ratio (1.28) you get a new number of 300.8 CFM. This is how much air your motor will flow under 7psi.

Compressor maps --> Many compressor maps are labled in CFM as the x-axis and cmpressor pressure ratio as the y-axis. However, there are a lot of maps that are labled in LB/MIN as well like these...http://www.turboneticsinc.com/comp_maps/fig3.html

So in order to switch from CFM we are going to multiply it by .075. (To be honest I forget where I got this number, but it has to do with ambient temperature, and I think this number is right around 70 degrees F. If someone has a better one, please let me know) Anyway, so you have (300.8 CFM X .075) and you get 22.56 LB/MIN.

So for 7psi, you have the following:
-- 7psi
-- 1.54 pressure ratio (p/r)*
-- 1.28 density ratio (d/r)
-- 300.8 CFM or
-- 22.55 LB/MIN*

Now to read the compressor maps I have provided you will need the two numbers that I have put a * by. Use this link again, and follow these instructions.
-- Use a ruler to find 22.55 LB/MIN on the x-axis,
-- Then find 1.54 p/r on the y-axis.
-- Draw a line to where they meet.

This will be the compressors efficiency at the maximum boost for that specific level (in this case 7psi @ 8,500rpm) You always want to have your point be to the right of the surge limit. If the point you land on is at a point that is less than 60% effciency, choose a different turbo.

[stu]

So, using the numbers provided, let's take a look at some compressor maps. If you look at the T3 "40" map, you will notice that 22.5 isn't even on the map, so you need to move to a bigger turbo.

Let's try the TO4B S-3. In this map, the point where 22.55 LB/MIN and 1.54 p/r meet is at just above 70% compressor effciency. This is what you are looking for.

Use these numbers to look at other graphs as well. Try the T-72 graph, see how you are not even towards the center circle?

I have already done the work for you for 4 different boost levels, 7, 9, 12, and 15psi. Here are the neccesary numbers you will need to check compressors. Once again I stared the numbers that you will need to use for these particular maps.

7psi
1.54 p/r*
1.28 d/r
300.8 CFM
22.55 LB/MIN*

9psi
1.69 p/r*
1.37 d/r
321.95 CFM
24.14 LB/MIN*

12psi
1.93 p/r*
1.48 d/r
347.8 CFM
26.085 LB/MIN*

15psi
2.16 p/r*
1.55 d/r
364.25 CFM
27.32 LB/MIN*


*Disclaimer: These numbers are just to give you a rough idea about what your engine will flow so you can have an idea of what turbo you want to use. If I made any mistakes, please let me know as soon as possible so I can change or delete them. If anyone has anything to add to this, please do, as I am somewhat of a beginer at this stuff. If there are any typos, I applogize but it is 4:00am and took me about an hour to type this all out. Good night. Feel free to ask questions.

P.S. Once I get my scanner hooked up, I will try to scan and post these graphs for everyone to use. It will also be much easier to understand WTF I am talking about. I will need to find out the legalities of posting the info though.

~Stu

[TedR719]

Holy shit stu thats alot of info! :D

Dan do you have any pics of the "Shorty" style cast-iron manifold? Does it clear a/c?

Thanks

[TedR719]

Also what's the website for those TEC turbos? or where can I get one...

RedZMonte you siad you an get those turbos can you find out how much for a t3/t4e 50 trim, with .48 exhaust?

Thanks

[DnVr]

hey Ted, if you end up not using that turbo another member was interested in it.:) He already PM'ed me before everybody else did.

[stu]

Yeah so was I.

[stu]

Hey turbo gurus, did I do all this stuff right? I don't want to put out any wrong info.

[gjcivic]

stu, what book are you looking at....? sounds like good info.

also, try checking the "forced induction classifieds" on honda-tech... some good deals I think. and homemadeturbo.com... they have done a lot of the "trial and error" (aka blowing motors) for us..... :)

[Maverick]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2404160628&category=6755

[stu]

What a good freakin deal!!!!! Stupid magic money that Radio Shack gives me, it's always dissapearing.

[stu]

gjcivic: It is called "Turbochargers" and it is published by HP Books. I forget who the author is, but it doesn't say it on the cover or spine anyway. This book is a little more old school than "Maximum Boost," but it still gives basically the same information. I think that these two books (together) are a great combination. While "Maximum Boost" gives excellent info on intercoolers and stuff, "Turbochargers" gives great info on the construction of turbos over the time that they have been used and also stuff like diesel and tractor pulling. They really complement each other. Oh yeah, "Turbochargers" also has a more in depth coverage of the different parts of the turbo, and it has really awesome graphs, like the ones I used for Ted's info. I would check it out. I would read Corky Bell's book first for the basics, then the other one for the more in depth stuff.
~Stu

[Mr. NoSkills]

If you wanna have one of your friends weld this up, here is a pretty cheap alternative as far as manifolds go:
http://www.jgstools.com/turbo/thk.html

you might also want to contact south florida performance.

As far as intercoolers go, i never saw anyone post up about a starion intercooler, you can find those on ebay for like $150. That way you can still get your front mount =)

[CSMsi311]

Damn good info, Stu.

Ted, TEC is in Golden, i don't know if they have a website. phone number is 303-271-3997. I'm seriously 3 minutes away from the shop. I wish I could get a job there.

Jason

[BluByU]

I have a conquest FMIC lying around in my garage. It's not mine, but I can persuade the owner to let it go. I'll PM you if he's willing to part, and the price.

[stu]

PM me about it too.