wrx ecu

[ohshitshun]

i am getting my wrx in about two weeks and i already have money saved for all the air mods and boost controller. just wondering what ecu would be the best, i plan on getting the greddy profec b any one have any feedback on that or khow if its worth it, I dont know a whole lot about the wrx yet so i could use a little help.

[davidm_sh]

going from oldest to newest ECU's for the WRX:

-unichip - user cannot modify maps, piggyback unit, not supported much these days. Price varies: new = $500-600, used = $200-300. Best to get tuned on dyno.

-Link ECU - full blown standalone with nice interface. Used to have a "bug" relating to fuel pump but that got fixed in the latest release along with it's price drop to ~$975

-UTEC - piggyback. Allows USER to tune fuel and timing. IMHO one of the better solutions for someone who likes to tune/tweak/add different components along the way (new turbo, exhuast, etc...). Price = $900-1000

-Reflash stock ECU - nice if you don't plan on doing many modification "step" to your car as each time you add a component you need to reflash. This costs money and the stock ECU can only be reflashed a finite number of times. And the user is, again, unable to reflash the ECU themselves. if you want to buy a "package" once or twice this is probably one of the best ECU options to go with. Price = $700-900 I believe.

- XEDE - similar to unichip except MANY more options for USER to tune with. Probably similar to UTEC with the exception that the UTEC is the ONLY piggyback system in which you can specify "static timing values" vs. delta changes to whatever the stock ECU wants to run for timing. And the stock ECU is VERY fickle about how much timing to run = inconsistant performance from run to run. Price = $???

Check out these three tuners as they are the most "widely known and used" tuners when it comes to package upgrade stages for the WRX.

www.vishnutuning.com
www.turboxs.com
www.cobbtuning.com

Good luck.

[ohshitshun]

im new to the subaru stuff so if you guys could tell me what your using and how you like it. I plan to upgrade the turbo, i would like to run about 20-22 psi so i need to know what ecu would be good for high boost?

[davidm_sh]

Originally posted by ohshitshun
im new to the subaru stuff so if you guys could tell me what your using and how you like it. I plan to upgrade the turbo, i would like to run about 20-22 psi so i need to know what ecu would be good for high boost?

I have to ask. Have you ever modified a turbo car before? Or have any experience/general knowledge about it? Becuase your last post seems to indicate otherwise. I am not trying to be mean it just sounds like you have a bit to learn. Things aren't quite as easy as slapping on a new turbo and cranking up the boost ... even with a ECU.

At least you recognize the fact that a programmable ECU is needed. Here is a quick rundown of what I have gone through on my WRX:

-VF22@19-21psi = blown turbo (at those boost levels) after 8,000 miles.
-MRT 3" turbo back exhaust
-AEM CAI (probably don't need)
-TXS TMIC = 2.2x larger than stock = <1psi pressure drop.
-STi injectors + GSS342 255lph fuel pump + parrallel fuel rails
-lightened pulley and flywheel.
-UTEC to tune it all along with quite a few gauges.

The biggest problem with what you have said is your equation for power lacking in FUEL and a good breathing engine (exhaust + getting rid of the 3 catalytic converters).

I would suggest spending a LOT of time at www.nasioc.com at factory forced induction along with the search funtion.

As far as other ECU options I have tried. I started with the unichip, went to the Link and ended up with the UTEC. I would, personally, advise the UTEC if you want to tune yourself or the reflashed ECU if you want to stick to the "staged power packages".

EDIT: SOrry almost forgot. If you want a turbo that is capable of holding that kind of boost up here I would suggest the following: PE1818, PE1820, APS SR40, or the greddy TZ18G turbo. I am going to try out a TD05H-18G turbo here pretty soon and hopefully it will last longer than the IHI series of turbos at 20-22psi. The problem, when selecting a turbo up here, is you pick up about 600-700 engine rpm of lag (compared to if you were at sea level) so building boost off the line to get a good launch becomes VERY difficult, up here, without the aid of such "cheaters" ;) like Nitrous.

[ohshitshun]

im not just going to slap on the turbo i know a little more than that. i know honda turbo stuff, thats why im asking, i am doing all the air components and possibly the fuel first im just curious as to what stages i should take to get the big boost and if possible without internals that is my main concern cause that is alot more money.

[davidm_sh]

Sorry didn't know... it was kind of hard to tell from your post :). Anyway as far as beefing up the internals I think you should be fine given the following criteria:

1) no matter what you do TUNE the car to avoid detonation, yah I know it's obvious but....
2) I have known people at sea level (Phil at TXS) who have run as much as 20-22psi with a 50shot. Granted that is on C16 race gas but the engines can take it. You will have troubles with the tranny far before the engine.

If you want to stage your upgrades. I would do the following:

1) ECU - my preference is UTEC
2) exhaust and uppipe - get rid of ALL three cats
3) injectors, fuel pump, and possibly rails.
4) then slap on a larger turbo and consider an intercooler upgrade of some sort.

I don't really know how necessary the rails are up here. But let me put it this way. A friend of mine at sea level has a pretty similar setup to mine. He could boost 17-18psi where as I could only boost 16-17psi without detonation. Now he wasn't getting ANY det while I was getting quite a bit on the SAME timing map and I was actually a hair richer 10.3:1 a/f. Up here I am unable to get to those equivalent boost/engine flow numbers (~22psi) and hold them steady to redline without taper.

Oh and just curious why are you making the switch from Hondas? That is one car I seriously fear in my WRX... a turboed Honda.

[ohshitshun]

i have a gsr that was supercharged it was pretty fast my friend has a turbo ls, and the reliability for boosted hondas is not good. And racing to me is not just going in a straight line and thats all a honda is good for thats just my opinion. I just want a factory turbo and i want all wheel drive so. with the right tunning a turbo honda wont hang with a wrx in any race.

[Ronin2121]

Ohshitshun,

What part of town do you live in? Just wondering cause there is bunch Nasioc.com guys around town. You can also get some info from Clubwrx.net. I think there is a meet pretty soon. It's a good way to talk and pick the brains of other wrx owners. Good luck with your new ride. Welcome to the Subie Brothahood.

Dave,
so what's up with the new turbo. Think we need to see who is faster :D :p :guns: :eek: (haha). Wish ya all the best of luck with it. Keep us up-to-date on how you like it.

Todd
;)

[davidm_sh]

ohshitshun - That's cool and it's also pretty funny as it seems that a lot of people I know like to brag about the "handling of Hondas" ;). I have to admit though, even after getting the STi suspension and some sticky SO3's on my WRX that my old 99 Prelude Type SH could out handle it on long sweeping curves when it was STOCK!! [heh].

Todd - Well the plan was to get the car back this weekend BUT... it seems that Brett had everything back together and was doing a little "test run" through the gears on the lift and 3rd gear wouldn't engage. Somthing about 3rd gear being a new desing and incorporating a part into the actual gear. SO... hopefully I will get the car back next weekend when it gets fixed :(. And hopefully I will be picking up my 18G from TEC next weekend as well. Oh and I agree ... a "friendly run" is in order ;).

[TedR719]

Well your ass better get out to the track and show me some driving skills...I'll will just have to save my pennies so I can boost along with the rest (might be a while). :p


Originally posted by ohshitshun
i have a gsr that was supercharged it was pretty fast my friend has a turbo ls, and the reliability for boosted hondas is not good. And racing to me is not just going in a straight line and thats all a honda is good for thats just my opinion. I just want a factory turbo and i want all wheel drive so. with the right tunning a turbo honda wont hang with a wrx in any race.

[w00dr0w]

Originally posted by davidm_sh

1) ECU - my preference is UTEC
2) exhaust and uppipe - get rid of ALL three cats
3) injectors, fuel pump, and possibly rails.
4) then slap on a larger turbo and consider an intercooler upgrade of some sort.

I

David, is this your preferred staging of upgrades for anyone with a WRX? Just curious because my friend just bought a 2003 WRX and is asking me what to do first. I told him to join a WRX forum. Thoughts?

[davidm_sh]

Originally posted by w00dr0w
David, is this your preferred staging of upgrades for anyone with a WRX? Just curious because my friend just bought a 2003 WRX and is asking me what to do first. I told him to join a WRX forum. Thoughts?

I have been giving this some thought. And if you have the money just buy one of the upper stage kits from someplace like TXS. It will save you a little bit of money. But if you don't then yah I guess that is what I would do... if I had it to do over again as far as upgrade path.

What I really did was:

1) EBC
2) exhaust
3) turbo - VF22
4) uppipe + lightened pulley + AEM CAI
5) injectors + fuel pump + ECU

The only reason I would do it differently is that I could have been "playing" with a programmable ECU (wasn't even CLOSE to being made/released at the time I got my car back in May of 2001), but I like to tune and tweak my car quite a bit... but everybody is different and I know of quite a few people who that does not appeal to.

Honestly most people say it's "dangerous" to slap on a EBC/MBC without engine control and for the most part they are right. BUT up here that little stock turbo ALWAYS runs down to about 12-13psi by redline = safe. The only place you might run into problems slapping on a MBC is doing LONG 4th and 5th gear hwy pulls for like 5+mins. ABOVE ALL I would suggest that you install at least a boost and EGT gauge to keep an eye on some things.

There are a lot of variations for that aformentioned upgrade path. Above all you need a ECU when you go to larger injectors at the very least. You could also just put on a larger turbo with the stock fuel system. But it won't really gain you that much since you have to keep the boost to reasonable levels (ie: same boost levels as stock turbo can attain = no gain in performance). Doing an ECU first means you can tune and get the MOST out of each mod you do along the way. The CAI, for example, might throw your a/f off = able to tune it back with ECU. Same goes for exhaust, etc...

[w00dr0w]

Nice, thanks.

[ohshitshun]

ok i figure i will have about $3000 to spend when i get my car what would be the best way to spend it?

[davidm_sh]

Originally posted by ohshitshun
ok i figure i will have about $3000 to spend when i get my car what would be the best way to spend it?

Ahh, no offense to you, but I hate this question [heh]. I see it ALL the time on www.i-club.com and www.nasioc.com. But I never answer it there so I will give it a shot here :). Go with the best bolt ons and see here:

1) Full 3" turbo back exhaust - NO catalytic converters. Trust me, it seems that no matter which brand you go with if you remove two of the cats in favor of one hi-flow cat, which is an option on just about all the turbobacks out there, you STILL get a CEL for it. Don't worry though the CEL is P0420 - catalytic converter below threshold = no performance hit.

Price = $1000, used (if you shop around and I would) ~$600ish

2) Larger turbo. probably somthing like a VF22 or one of the IHI series. It will be a nice bump and a VF22 can be found for as low as $750. You could go for somthing like a 1818, 1820, or SR40 BUT these turbos START around $1550+. They are not too easy to come by used either.I would give the market about 6 more months and there will be even more turbo options out there.

3) larger fuel pump. GSS342 Walbro = $100 and STI injectors = $400 (shop around a bit)

4) UTEC = $950.

Total = 1000 + 750 + 500 + 950 = 3150. Sorry it's a little over budget but if you find a used turbo back you can more than make up that difference.

What I laid out will basically give you a stg4 kit. DOH I forgot the uppipe. That's another $200 or so BUT WELL worth it. So I would suggest picking up a used turbo back exhaust. I have a MRT exhuast which is one of the quietest I have personally heard (I have heard TXS, brullen, greddy catback, scoobysport, BPM). But if you like loud than BPM GT baby [heh].

You could probably get away with no injectors for now and still run the stock 440cc injectors up to about 17psi (up here at altitude>5000ft) due to lower atmospheric pressure. Most of the subaru people are "worry warts" however and only recommned running any injector up to 85% DC. They say anything over that they go static = loss of control and fueling. But you being a Honda guy shouldn't have a problem with running them higher than that... after all those years of Jackson Racing doing what they did on their kits [heh].

Good luck

[ohshitshun]

as far as down pipes and up pipes, does the brand matter cuz hks has some for a good price. which do you recomend?

[davidm_sh]

I would NOT recommend HKS. Here is a list of brands I would personally suggest going from most quiet to loudest:

-MRT
-TurboXS
-Vishnu (expensive though)
-Scooby Sport
-BPM GT

The reason I don't like HKS is becuase their downpipe mates up to the turbo like the stock downpipe. It has a flat flange that does not accomadate the wastegate gases other than to just make them make a 90degree turn directly out of the turbo into the main exhaust stream. The majority of downpipes have a bell-mouth design that makes the combination of wastegate and main exhaust flow much more gradual.

And then exhaust systems like BPM and Visnhu (signature series) and even PDM (up in Denver) make a downpipe that introduces the wastegate gases downstream into the dp about 1-2ft. after main exhaust stream. These seem to be the "better" ones but also, as to no suprise from manufacturing standpoint, they are also the most expensive.

[ohshitshun]

i found a invidia down pipe there is no cat and it has the bell mouth let me know what you think, i want ot do it the right way

[davidm_sh]

It's not just about the downpipe. There is still a cat in the midpipe section at 2.5" in diameter and then the stock exhaust which is fairly restrictive itself. I would suggest getting a complete 3" all the way back exhaust system. Preferably one where the dp mates up to the midpipe section where the midpipe section is in the stock location. If you go that route and down the road decide to upgrade to a turbo system that requires new up and dp the dp's are usually designed to mate up with the stock location midpipe. Did you catch all that :)? SOunded kind of convuluted when I was typing it.

[ohshitshun]

yes i know. i was looking at the blitz nur spec exhaust and mrt up pipe and invidia down pipe thats what i am plannig so far do you see anything wrong with this setup.

[SubeTek]

oshitshun-if your interested in WRX tuning parts give me a call at Flatirons Subaru. I'm the person rebuilding Dave's trans and do a good majority of the WRX mods in Colorado. We carry almost all performance lines and our prices are inline with just about everyone else. Let me know if i can help.

Bret Carter
Flatirons Subaru
303-443-0114

[davidm_sh]

Originally posted by SubeTek
oshitshun-if your interested in WRX tuning parts give me a call at Flatirons Subaru. I'm the person rebuilding Dave's trans and do a good majority of the WRX mods in Colorado. We carry almost all performance lines and our prices are inline with just about everyone else. Let me know if i can help.

Bret Carter
Flatirons Subaru
303-443-0114

WOW-

what are you doing here Bret ;). Yes yes oshitshun if you want somebody to talk to about and/or work on your car this is THE MAN to talk to :).

[Pang]

Subetek how much can you get the SPT rear exhaust section for?

[ohshitshun]

ok when i get the car next week i will give you a call, can you price match other online prices or come close?

[SubeTek]

dave-i've been watching these forums for a while.

TurboSi-i'll see what i can find out.

ohshitshun-we try to match as much as possible, sometimes we can't then we get as close as we can. We try to give the best service and build confidence with local customers as opposed to the sell it and forget it attitude of most online companies. Give me a call when you get your WRX.

Bret

[T-WRX450]

ohshitsun,
I thought that I would jump in hereand introduce myself. My name is Troy Fankell and I work with Bret. I am the Performance Parts Guy up here at Flatirons Imports. I have many options available including the MRT, Vishnu, as well as Invidia and Blitz.
Exhaust is my first recommendation to increase flow and then Up pipe, The Vishnu Stage 0 is a tremendous package from Vishnu just opt for the Up pipe w/ flex joint and the ECUTek vs. the Unichip and then you don't need to buy the EBC. The ECUTek reflash (currently from Vishnu) is far and away better than any other system unless you would like to spent insane amount of time "tuning" or a lot of money for a qualified tuner to dial in your system. These are only my suggestions in what I've found that works.

TurboSi,
The rear section is it for the 02-03 WRX (an actual STi piece sell $860 -reg $939.75) or the 02-03 2.5RS (a SPT part sell $360 -reg $393.75). Let me know.

Troy Fankell
303 402-5142
Flatirons Imports

[Pang]

its for the 02 WRX. !!! damn thats an expensive reare section!!!

[SubeTek]

Subaru is very proud of their factory performance parts--that's why we sell all the aftermarket brands. Let us know if we can help. Also, we're getting into the Honda/Acura performance parts business also on the Acura side of the dealership if anyone needs anything.

Bret

[davidm_sh]

Originally posted by SubeTek
Subaru is very proud of their factory performance parts--that's why we sell all the aftermarket brands. Let us know if we can help. Also, we're getting into the Honda/Acura performance parts business also on the Acura side of the dealership if anyone needs anything.

Bret

Hey Bret-

Will they be like Pikes Peak Acura that retains the warranty when THEY install/setup a JRSC kit on an acura? Just curious. It's been a while and maybe Pikes Peak doesn't even do that anymore, but they did about 1+ years ago.

[T-WRX450]

To answer both questions - Yes.

Pikes Peak is our sister store.

[ohshitshun]

i saw an exhaust on the net it was made by dnp has anyone ever heard of it looks very nice and it is 3" all the way back.

[SubeTek]

oshitshun-i'd be very wary of some of the late comers (band wagon jumpers) in Subaru modifications. Everybody is now selling parts for Subarus and alot of it's polished/chrome plated crap. If you'd like some recommendations let me know.

[ohshitshun]

i would like some recommendations i was looking at a hks.

[SubeTek]

It all depends on the price range. HKS is allright, but their design isn't the best. MRT makes an excellent turboback exhaust as well as a catless uppipe with a flex joint, both of which are very good quality. If you've got the extra cash, i'd suggest Vishnu tuning (owned by Shiv Pathak-writer for Sports Compact Car Magazine) his signature exhausts are second to none but they cost a little extra. He also does tuning packages in steps which are very safe. Let me know if there's anything else you'd like info on.

Bret