Save Bristol

[Brandon]

http://www.savingbristol.com

Peepz the guestbook too.

[Dave_L]

What...the...fuck!?

[Dave_L]

I posted on the guestbook.

[89civicsi]

seriously...wtf? is that for real?

[bd_240]

I hope she does read that, it just goes to show how stupid people are that support abortion.

[Brandon]

It was supposed to be funny, I didn't know HAI had Serious Saturdays. Mah bad

Damn those baby killers! Because if there's one thing this world needs, it's more unwanted babies.

[89civicsi]

i never said it wasnt funny..it has kind of a shock affect..

[Weston]

I hope she does read that, it just goes to show how stupid people are that support abortion.

For once, I agree with you.

[chrisbarnett01]

It was supposed to be funny, I didn't know HAI had Serious Saturdays. Mah bad


yeah, wtf

[V8SpankR]

That's a bit rediculous but there's nothing wrong with Pro-choice since this is america.

[john]

I wonder if she looked good nekid?

[myshtern]

I wonder if she looked good nekid?
Yes, she did.

[bd_240]

That's a bit rediculous but there's nothing wrong with Pro-choice since this is america.

Nothing wrong with killing human beings your right... this is america of course we should be given that right!!

[john]

Somewhat along the same lines:

http://palinsarmy.ytmnd.com/

[Brandon]

lol ok, abortion thread it will be...

I know you were being sarcastic but just to clarify, there is indeed something wrong with killing human beings. You have murder confused with abortion. Killing human beings is murder, disposing of fetuses is abortion. A fetus is not a human being, it's simply human tissue. A being is independent. A fetus can not do anything, it's completely dependent on the host. Given time, a fetus could become a human being but it's not. Just like a caterpillar is not a butterfly.

[chrisbarnett01]

i'm so blown away that there are anti abortion people here I can't even make a witty response.

What about animals? If you're dog is sick and dying, do you let it live or put it to sleep? I don't see how you could do one and be against the other. Because we all know dogs > children.


and 2, what does it hurt you if some random chick you've never met has an abortion? How would you know? What does it matter?

And most importantly: What gives you the belief you have the right to even have an opinion about it?

[Skaterkid]

:rolleyes:

Abortion is a right consistent with this country's freedoms. I understand that killing is wrong however, if the child is born into an unfit home is that better for the child? How about rape victims? Do you think that some of them might not want to have a child that reminds them of a horrible experience? Doesn't seem fair for the child to be raised by a mother who might harbor resentment for the child. Anyways, the Christian church has no right to be trying to legislate its views into the constitution. Abortion, like cigarettes or alcohol will exist whether it is legal or not. It is in the mother's best interest that it remains legal.

On a non-serious note since I can dissect my political and moral beliefs from my sense of humor, thanks for the laugh, B.

[Loud_Scott]

lol ok, abortion thread it will be...

I know you were being sarcastic but just to clarify, there is indeed something wrong with killing human beings. You have murder confused with abortion. Killing human beings is murder, disposing of fetuses is abortion. A fetus is not a human being, it's simply human tissue. A being is independent. A fetus can not do anything, it's completely dependent on the host. Given time, a fetus could become a human being but it's not. Just like a caterpillar is not a butterfly.

holy shit.... i'm either extremely stoned or that was the most intelligent thing every out of B...

it's also 100% right. If you believe another unwanted child is a better option than some chick getting vaccuumed out then you're an idiot. We got about 3 billion too many people in this world as it is...


...and damnit B for beating me to posting, that's what i came here for.. .jerk

[nxbrennan]

And most importantly: What gives you the belief you have the right to even have an opinion about it?
Also most importantly: What gives you (anti-abortion people) the right to FORCE your opinion upon everyone else?

[Weston-work]

You don't really have to be Christian (or any other religion) to realize that there is something inherently wrong with killing human life. Calling it "pro-choice" is just a marketing term that puts a positive spin on stopping a beating heart because it's inconvenient for you. Don't give me the bullshit hypothetical "what if" arguments... we all know that the vast majority of abortions are done because people are taking the easy way out, rather than dealing with the consequences of their own reckless behavior. I think we've all been guilty of being a little reckless from time to time, but the difference is that some people actually stand up and be a man (or woman) and take responsibility for their own actions, even though it's not easy. I'm pretty sick of this "Generation Me", do whatever you want and the consequences never your fault, bullshit.

That said, do what you will in your own lives... I know that people will always do things that are wrong, whether I like it or not, or if it's legal or not, but don't expect me to ever treat it as a "right", or to tell me that I don't have the right to vote against something that promotes it. That's the whole point of having individuals vote... if there's an issue that we don't agree with, we vote against it. And that actually is a right. However, I'm not some whacked out fundamentalist who chooses candidates based on one issue alone (such as abortion, gun control, etc), so Obama will probably get my vote, even though he's not a perfect fit... he's just a much better fit for this country than McCain is.

[V8SpankR]

I'm pro-choice;it's not my place or anybody else's to tell a person what they can and what they cannot do with their own bodies once you are an adult and making them illegal won't stop them.

I just don't like the fact that the pro-lifers seem to care less and disregard the rights of the persons that are born vs an undeveloped fetus.

[myshtern]

I think that if someone is considering an abortion, it's usually best for the would-be kid.

[john]

I'd do her.

[bd_240]

lol ok, abortion thread it will be...

I know you were being sarcastic but just to clarify, there is indeed something wrong with killing human beings. You have murder confused with abortion. Killing human beings is murder, disposing of fetuses is abortion. A fetus is not a human being, it's simply human tissue. A being is independent. A fetus can not do anything, it's completely dependent on the host. Given time, a fetus could become a human being but it's not. Just like a caterpillar is not a butterfly.


So your arguement is that its not a human because its completely dependent on the host? Well when does this tissue finally become a human being? If a mother throws a her 1 year old baby off a balcony she's going to jail for murder. But a 1 year couldn't live on its own, it is still completely dependent on the parent to feed it and keep it out of harms way. So then should the mother be given the right to kill it? I dont think so. It has its own dna structure, which will never be created again, and a beating heart. Its a human being same as you and i, the only difference between us is devolopment.

[bd_240]

it's also 100% right. If you believe another unwanted child is a better option than some chick getting vaccuumed out then you're an idiot. We got about 3 billion too many people in this world as it is...


So should i tell my adopted friend who has a very successful job, a wife and two kids that he would have been better off being aborted...?

[V8SpankR]

"Well when does this tissue finally become a human being?"


That there is the main part of the abortion argument. I think right now our laws are fine and it's an argument nobody will win but abortion will always be legal and available in this country since they if they were made illegal they'd still be taking place in an unsafe manner and probably be killing the mom and the fetus.

My opinion is I don't have one since I've never been faced with the desicion and I'm not a woman.

[chrisbarnett01]

Being a living human being is to have consciousness. a fetus doesn't have this. Neither does someone born with no brain function whatsoever. Or someone on life support with no brain function.

If we can pull the plug and kill those who have tragic accidents and lose brain function, why can't the decision be made pre-birth? Neither the fetus or the accident victim can live on their own without life support, so the difference really isn't that great.

[jackmode9316]

Being a living human being is to have consciousness. a fetus doesn't have this. Neither does someone born with no brain function whatsoever. Or someone on life support with no brain function.

If we can pull the plug and kill those who have tragic accidents and lose brain function, why can't the decision be made pre-birth? Neither the fetus or the accident victim can live on their own without life support, so the difference really isn't that great.
+1
I like that arguement.

[Street_Kings]

It has its own dna structure, which will never be created again, and a beating heart. Its a human being same as you and i, the only difference between us is devolopment.

Not quite, if aborted within the first month the heart has not yet begun to beat.

Animals also have beating hearts. They are also living, breathing lifeforms, with unique DNA that will never be created again. They have mothers, fathers, siblings, and they're killed everyday for food.

What separates us from animals, then? Why is it morally acceptable to not only kill, but to breed and raise animals with the express intent of killing and eating them? Humans are not unique genetically. The only thing that sets us apart from animals is the human consciousness (or soul if you want to look at it that way). Coincidentally, early term fetuses also lack a consciousness.

[Dave_L]

You don't really have to be Christian (or any other religion) to realize that there is something inherently wrong with killing human life. Calling it "pro-choice" is just a marketing term that puts a positive spin on stopping a beating heart because it's inconvenient for you. Don't give me the bullshit hypothetical "what if" arguments... we all know that the vast majority of abortions are done because people are taking the easy way out, rather than dealing with the consequences of their own reckless behavior. I think we've all been guilty of being a little reckless from time to time, but the difference is that some people actually stand up and be a man (or woman) and take responsibility for their own actions, even though it's not easy. I'm pretty sick of this "Generation Me", do whatever you want and the consequences never your fault, bullshit.

That said, do what you will in your own lives... I know that people will always do things that are wrong, whether I like it or not, or if it's legal or not, but don't expect me to ever treat it as a "right", or to tell me that I don't have the right to vote against something that promotes it. That's the whole point of having individuals vote... if there's an issue that we don't agree with, we vote against it. And that actually is a right. However, I'm not some whacked out fundamentalist who chooses candidates based on one issue alone (such as abortion, gun control, etc), so Obama will probably get my vote, even though he's not a perfect fit... he's just a much better fit for this country than McCain is.

:werd: What about adoption? There are a lot of parents out there that can't have a kid but want one. Just because you don't want a kid, doesn't mean that someone else out there wouldnt want it. It really disturbs me when someone willingly has sex and then gets prego and then goes "Oops, better get the ol' coat hanger out so I can keep having sex and not experience any inconvenience". It seems that a lot of people that have kids think it's the worst thing ever but then grow to have it be the best thing that ever happened to them.

As far as the rape scenario, that's a tough one. But like I said, I'm sure there are alot of people out there willing to take the kid upon birth. My GF's step sister got raped and had a kid and he's a great kid. I dont think her sister ever regrets having the kid.

[Skaterkid]

There is nothing wrong with adoption. And its currently an option. I don't see why our current abortion laws are so bad. You're giving women the choice to do what they want should they get pregnant whether its through consentual sex or not. I also don't agree with women who don't take the neccessary precautions to avoid having a kid while having sex. I also don't agree with smoking, but I'll never support a ban on cigarettes. America is about the freedom of choice and until someone can prove that a fetus has consciousness in the current wording of the law I don't think its fair to get rid of it.

I think its just as disturbing how many (not all) pro-lifers couldn't give a shit what happens to the child once its born. Seems like a double standard to me.

[DrJones]

I'm not against abortions. I think everyone can agree that there should be fewer unwanted pregnancies, the part we all disagree on is what to do when they happen.

I look at it this way. If the parents (or sadly as it often is, parent) doesn't want the kid, and is considering abortion, then it's better for society to give them that choice.

Think about it, if they don't want the kid, then what are the chances of that kid being raised properly? IMO, quite slim. Yes, I know you can find an example of "But xxx was going to have an abortion, but it didn't work, or they decided not to, and now yyy is a rocket scientist/professional athlete/great person."

I'm not denying that kids raised in a situation like that can't turn out well. I'm saying that more often than not they don't. Kids raised in families where they aren't wanted or who aren't ready to raise them properly will be much more likely to turn to a life of crime, not finish their education, have unwanted kids themselves, etc. That's simple logic. Parents who don't want a kid, won't love a kid, or can't properly provide for a kid won't raise a good kid. There are factors involved in how a kid turns out, if you can't provide those factors, the chances are much worse.

The net effect of outlawing abortion on society is bad.

The only "solution" to the problem, is to stop unwanted pregnancies, but since that can't be done, and that problem is getting worse, abortion is the next best thing IMO.

[bd_240]

There is nothing wrong with adoption. And its currently an option. I don't see why our current abortion laws are so bad. You're giving women the choice to do what they want should they get pregnant whether its through consentual sex or not. I also don't agree with women who don't take the neccessary precautions to avoid having a kid while having sex. I also don't agree with smoking, but I'll never support a ban on cigarettes. America is about the freedom of choice and until someone can prove that a fetus has consciousness in the current wording of the law I don't think its fair to get rid of it.

I think its just as disturbing how many (not all) pro-lifers couldn't give a shit what happens to the child once its born. Seems like a double standard to me.

Watch an ultrasound of a baby being aborted, you'll see that it shows pain and pulls away from the source of discomfort. I would call that consciousness.

[Deceptakhan]

Some plants shy away from flame. They also reach toward sunlight, and dig roots towards water. Shame on you for having wood furniture.

[Skaterkid]

Watch an ultrasound of a baby being aborted, you'll see that it shows pain and pulls away from the source of discomfort. I would call that consciousness.
I don't know where you get your information, but studies all show that fetus's are not likely to feel pain until the third trimester. Abortions cannot happen at that time. Try again.

[myshtern]

Watch an ultrasound of a baby being aborted, you'll see that it shows pain and pulls away from the source of discomfort. I would call that consciousness.
Where the fuck have you seen an ultrasound of an aborted baby?

[bd_240]

Right here: http://www.silentscream.org/video/SScream%20English/SilentSc_Eng_3.mov

A little old but you can clearly see what is going on...

And tell me this isnt a human.

[ edited - images removed due to inappropriate nature ]

[Skaterkid]

You do understand that in America those are illegal abortions, right? In a legal abortion the fetus won't feel it.

[bd_240]

The video shows the abortion at 12 weeks, thats legal.

[DrJones]

The video shows the abortion at 12 weeks, thats legal.

Waiting 12 weeks to get an abortion is even more irresponsible than getting pregnant in the first place.

[V8SpankR]

Yes,the pictures are sad but it does nothing to change my stance on it being legal in America.

I also think those fetuses are well past the 3rd trimester and not performed here in America or legally.


I also find it funny that most Republicans are anti-abortion but they don't hesistate to send our soldiers irresponsibly into war to die;I guess that's why they want all fetuses to be born so they can die for our country one day.

[bd_240]

Yes,the pictures are sad but it does nothing to change my stance on it being legal in America.

I also think those fetuses are well past the 3rd trimester and not performed here in America or legally.


I also find it funny that most Republicans are anti-abortion but they don't hesistate to send our soldiers irresponsibly into war to die;I guess that's why they want all fetuses to be born so they can die for our country one day.

That fetus is at 24 weeks.

Thats also the most ignorant thing you could say about our military. The difference is that those americans who enlist in the military are aware that they could die for their country, and VOLUNTARILY sign up. The unborn child in the womb doesn't sign up to die, its an innocent human life that's being taken.

[Deceptakhan]

What a stupid thing to say v8. -1

[integra_drk]

The ignorance of some of you guys is apalling. For those of you who compare child birth to the killing of animals, that is probably one of the most retarded defenses I have ever heard. Sounds like something PITA would come up with. Because killing animals is alright, its alright to kill human babies as well? Come the fuck on.

Weston hit it dead on when he was talking about "Generation Me". People today are so reckless with sexual behavior it makes me sick. People are taught at somewhat of an early age that if you have unprotected sex (intentionally or unintentionally), there is a good chance you will get pregnant. Having learned this you would think they would be more careful with their actions. Sex is a risky thing, if you take that risk, get pregnant, or get someone pregnant, you need to man up and deal with the consequences, not just take the easy way out and kill what you have created.

Brandon, you conveniently called abortion "disposing of fetuses", as if they are some sort of trash. Some of you say that they are not human before a certain time period and have no feeling. I disagree with this, from the moment of conception, a baby is growing. The only reason behind calling them "fetuses" and saying they are just tissue is to try and justify what is ultimately wrong. No matter how petty you make it seem, no matter what words are used to sugar coat it, the fact remains that a human is being killed.

If you had sex, got pregnant, and wasnt expecting it, deal with it. Have the baby, put it up for adoption, anything but kill it. There are plenty of couples out there that cannot conceive, and I'm sure any orhpaned child, if asked, would much rather be alive than never to have existed at all.

[Brandon]

The video shows the abortion at 12 weeks, thats legal.

That fetus is at 24 weeks.


????


I'll have to watch the video at home.

[Street_Kings]

The ignorance of some of you guys is apalling. For those of you who compare child birth to the killing of animals, that is probably one of the most retarded defenses I have ever heard. Sounds like something PITA would come up with. Because killing animals is alright, its alright to kill human babies as well? Come the fuck on.


Fully read and analyze statments before flagging someone as ignorant, lest you look so yourself. The point being made was defining human life. At which point does it cease to be simply a cluster of cells, to becoming human life? What makes human life? If you argue that human life is simply biological, such as the beating of the heart, and the unique DNA, then what separates us from animals? Before you can argue the morality of abortions or even the term "taking a human life", you first have to define what human life is, and when it begins.

You state that "from the moment of conception, a baby is growing," yet so are every other clusters of living cells in the universe. I'm still waiting for someone to define, and show, with clear and credible research, the point in which the cluster of cells ceases to become a cluster of cells and becomes a human.

I'd be curious of the views of the pro-lifers in this thread regarding birth control and contraception such as condoms, plan b, and spermicides?

BD_240:
Thanks for removing the pictures, as they serve zero context to the discussion of legal abortions in the U.S.

[Brandon]

It's funny how my arguments either are a "positive spin" or they are "convenient". As if I've somehow changed the meaning of words in the dictionary without anyone noticing.


The only reason behind calling them "fetuses" and saying they are just tissue is to try and justify what is ultimately wrong.

Or maybe because that's what they are....?

fe·tus –noun, plural
the young of an animal in the womb or egg, esp. in the later stages of development when the body structures are in the recognizable form of its kind, in humans after the end of the second month of gestation.

tis·sue –noun
an aggregate of similar cells and cell products forming a definite kind of structural material with a specific function, in a multicellular organism.

If I don't believe it's wrong (which obviously, I don't) then there's no need for me to justify anything.

Brandon, you conveniently called abortion "disposing of fetuses", as if they are some sort of trash.

In a world full of rainbows and teddy bears, you might have a point. However in the real world, what do you think they do with fetuses if they don't dispose of them? I've never seen what happens first hand but I would imagine they're put into a red bio-hazard bag and disposed of. Educate me on what happens because I don't know and you think I'm wrong.

I'd be curious of the views of the pro-lifers in this thread regarding birth control and contraception such as condoms, plan b, and spermicides?

As am I. The pill can prevent an egg from attaching to the uterus in the first 5 days and thus killing a baby.

[V8SpankR]

That fetus is at 24 weeks.

Thats also the most ignorant thing you could say about our military. The difference is that those americans who enlist in the military are aware that they could die for their country, and VOLUNTARILY sign up. The unborn child in the womb doesn't sign up to die, its an innocent human life that's being taken.


I was comparing the thought process of the pro-war/pro life crowd and not comparing abortion to our soldiers dying.

This is why we shouldn't talk about such a sensitive subject since people are prone to personal attacks and general asshole-ness. Some of the opinions don't come across well on the net.

I'm done here since it just seems like a pissing match that is going nowhere just like all abortion discussions end up being.

[Conrad]

I'm done here since it just seems like a pissing match that is going nowhere just like all abortion discussions end up being.

That means the other side winz...

[doogie06]

My view is that you aren't a human being until you have a Social Security Card, therefore if you kill an illegal, you should get paid an abortion fee.

[Weston-work]

My view is that you aren't a human being until you have a Social Security Card, therefore if you kill an illegal, you should get paid an abortion fee.

What about people who have misplaced their Social Security Card?

[doogie06]

Dead...

[Martian]

I don't understand why any of us males should even be having this conversation. None of you can have an abortion so what do you care.

[chrisbarnett01]

If you had sex, got pregnant, and wasnt expecting it, deal with it. Have the baby, put it up for adoption, anything but kill it.


It isn't easy for a female to go through the entire process without becoming emotionally attached to it. Which is why lots of people end up having the children and keeping them, but not taking good care of them.

Also what about situations where the mother was doing drugs or taking alcohol for the first few weeks of the pregnancy, completely unaware they were pregnant? With a high risk of having a retarded or crippled child, abortion may very well be the best option.

I understand you don't like abortion, but consider the viewpoints of those who are actually affected by it before you decide to force legislation on others(not directed at you specifically, just anti abortion people in general).

[-=[Juztin]=-]

I'm definitely pro-choice when it comes to something like rape. However, when it's just un-protected sex between a consenting couple I'm pro-life. 72 hours for Plan B is ample time for you to fix your mistake.

[Weston-work]

It isn't easy for a female to go through the entire process without becoming emotionally attached to it.

So, in other words... they should be allowed to kill their unborn children because they might end up loving them otherwise.

[myshtern]

So, in other words... they should be allowed to kill their unborn children because they might end up loving them otherwise.
There is no rationality in the emotions, they're just emotions.

[Dave_L]

Also what about situations where the mother was doing drugs or taking alcohol for the first few weeks of the pregnancy, completely unaware they were pregnant? With a high risk of having a retarded or crippled child, abortion may very well be the best option.


:werd: Those retards aren't worth having around either. Maybe We should just call them fetuses.

[chrisbarnett01]

So, in other words... they should be allowed to kill their unborn children because they might end up loving them otherwise.

No, they may end up just having an emotional attachment and not be fit to take care of them at all. Financially, emotionally, responsibly, etc.

[Weston-work]

No, they may end up just having an emotional attachment and not be fit to take care of them at all. Financially, emotionally, responsibly, etc.

So, if a normal person has a child, but then 10 years later loses their job, goes insane, and starts doing coke, they should perform a 30th trimester abortion because they are no longer a fit parent?

[B16crxTurbo]

"Is this particular individual the unfit mother?"

[doogie06]

This thread is proof why BJ's are a must in relationships.

[doogie06]

I'm all for Abortion when there is rape or incest involved, let's face it, the child wouldn't live a very good life in that case. But, if you're two grown people who screwed up, you should have to deal with it, you could always put the kid up for adoption, there are plenty of people that would make great parent's who can't for health reasons. But, I'm kind of neutral to the whole thing, one thing I know for sure is we should drive up the cost of abortions for those people who just messed up, make it like $20,000 or something, $3k to the hospital, $17k to the govt so Obama doesn't tax us as much.

[bd_240]

Fully read and analyze statments before flagging someone as ignorant, lest you look so yourself. The point being made was defining human life. At which point does it cease to be simply a cluster of cells, to becoming human life? What makes human life? If you argue that human life is simply biological, such as the beating of the heart, and the unique DNA, then what separates us from animals? Before you can argue the morality of abortions or even the term "taking a human life", you first have to define what human life is, and when it begins.

You state that "from the moment of conception, a baby is growing," yet so are every other clusters of living cells in the universe. I'm still waiting for someone to define, and show, with clear and credible research, the point in which the cluster of cells ceases to become a cluster of cells and becomes a human.

I'd be curious of the views of the pro-lifers in this thread regarding birth control and contraception such as condoms, plan b, and spermicides?

BD_240:
Thanks for removing the pictures, as they serve zero context to the discussion of legal abortions in the U.S.

What separates us from animals is that we even have the ability to have this conversation, reason, emotion, etc etc...

From day one this "cluster of cells" has its own dna structure. How could anyone even prove when it becomes a human, its all just based on opinion. Thats how pro-choice supporters can justify the act, saying that its not a human being yet. What is the proof that it isn't? It goes both ways...

Basically all forms of birth control are in a sense abortion minus condoms since they prevent the sperm from coming in contact with the egg. All others kill the cell or flush it out.

I didn't remove the pictures the mods did. Those pics were at 24 weeks though which is the end of the second trimester, its not illegal until the third trimester correct?

I was comparing the thought process of the pro-war/pro life crowd and not comparing abortion to our soldiers dying.

This is why we shouldn't talk about such a sensitive subject since people are prone to personal attacks and general asshole-ness. Some of the opinions don't come across well on the net.

I'm done here since it just seems like a pissing match that is going nowhere just like all abortion discussions end up being.

Well you kinda left yourself open for it... it wasn't a very well thought out comparison. But i agree that personal attacks dont get the conversation anywhere and should be left out.


I don't understand why any of us males should even be having this conversation. None of you can have an abortion so what do you care.

Its a morality issue. What if the government said its ok to kill all white women between the age of 20 and 30 at your discretion... would you say oh well i dont care because my wife is african american? Seems like a pretty selfish point of view. The democratic party calls themselves the party for women but then they have supporters like you who really don't care at all.


It isn't easy for a female to go through the entire process without becoming emotionally attached to it. Which is why lots of people end up having the children and keeping them, but not taking good care of them.

Also what about situations where the mother was doing drugs or taking alcohol for the first few weeks of the pregnancy, completely unaware they were pregnant? With a high risk of having a retarded or crippled child, abortion may very well be the best option.

I understand you don't like abortion, but consider the viewpoints of those who are actually affected by it before you decide to force legislation on others(not directed at you specifically, just anti abortion people in general).

I don't think that a life should be taken by any means but especially just because it will be retarded or crippled. What makes you better than the nazis and the holocaust? Choosing who can live and die just because of something that makes them different.

So, if a normal person has a child, but then 10 years later loses their job, goes insane, and starts doing coke, they should perform a 30th trimester abortion because they are no longer a fit parent?

Word.

I'm all for Abortion when there is rape or incest involved, let's face it, the child wouldn't live a very good life in that case. But, if you're two grown people who screwed up, you should have to deal with it, you could always put the kid up for adoption, there are plenty of people that would make great parent's who can't for health reasons. But, I'm kind of neutral to the whole thing, one thing I know for sure is we should drive up the cost of abortions for those people who just messed up, make it like $20,000 or something, $3k to the hospital, $17k to the govt so Obama doesn't tax us as much.

Rape, incest, and medical situations only account for less than 6 percent of all abortions done in the us.

[Brandon]

What separates us from animals is that we even have the ability to have this conversation, reason, emotion, etc etc...

Dolphins (and many others) communicate. My retarded dog knows cats are bad since he got scratched by one (reason). Elephants mourn. What's the etc etc?

From day one this "cluster of cells" has its own dna structure. How could anyone even prove when it becomes a human, its all just based on opinion. Thats how pro-choice supporters can justify the act, saying that its not a human being yet. What is the proof that it isn't? It goes both ways...

I agree. It does go both ways, who gets to decide when a child is actually a child. That is why I'm all for people making their own decisions and acting on their own beliefs within their own families. Pro-life folks want to push their beliefs on others and invades people's lives.

I didn't remove the pictures the mods did. Those pics were at 24 weeks though which is the end of the second trimester, its not illigal until the third trimester correct?

It has to be done in the first actually.

[bd_240]

Dolphins (and many others) communicate. My retarded dog knows cats are bad since he got scratched by one (reason). Elephants mourn. What's the etc etc?



I agree. It does go both ways, who gets to decide when a child is actually a child. That is why I'm all for people making their own decisions and acting on their own beliefs within their own families. Pro-life folks want to push their beliefs on others and invades people's lives.



It has to be done in the first actually.

Alright i stand corrected on the actual laws and when it can be done.

Let me ask one thing though. How would you differentiate the fetus of a dog and of a human... the DNA structure correct? Yes a fetus may just be tissue but it has no chance of becoming a different species right? So what makes it not human? What characteristic about being in the early stages of development makes it not human yet? It will grow up to be the same as you and i.

[Brandon]

I'm not saying that a fetus is dog tissue that becomes a human. I believe when it's born is when it becomes murder. Does that answer your question?

[bd_240]

I know you weren't saying that a fetus is dog tissue that becomes human. And i understand your position on this matter and when you think its murder. The point that i'm trying to get at is from conception it is undoubtedly human. The issue is when life actually starts. You would say at birth, i would say conception. So elaborate on why you think life begins at birth.

[chrisbarnett01]

So, if a normal person has a child, but then 10 years later loses their job, goes insane, and starts doing coke, they should perform a 30th trimester abortion because they are no longer a fit parent?

Maybe for once you could NOT twist everyone's words to make what they said fit your agenda? You're like a god damned retarded John McCain campaign manager.



I don't think that a life should be taken by any means but especially just because it will be retarded or crippled. What makes you better than the nazis and the holocaust? Choosing who can live and die just because of something that makes them different.



I'm not saying go out and murder crippled or retarded people, I'm saying that not everyone is prepared to handle that type of child.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but if I knew in the first few weeks of pregnancy that a child of mine was probably crippled/retarded/mentally ill, yeah, I'd abort and get a do-over.

Unconscious being, no emotional attachment, and the ability to start over. I don't see how anyone could decide differently if they knew the sacrificial, financial and emotional outlay required to raise that type of child.



Oh and Weston, if you noticed a theme in this post, good.

[myshtern]

So, if a normal person has a child, but then 10 years later loses their job, goes insane, and starts doing coke, they should perform a 30th trimester abortion because they are no longer a fit parent?
Weston, the whole point of a abortion is to prevent it from getting that far.

People who get abortions are far more likely to lose their job, go insane, and start doing coke, thus they are unfit to be parents. Abortions stem that problem, just in a morally bad way.

I think there are a lot of understandable reasons to have abortions such as the kid might be retarded, rape, underage but there definitely need to be consequences for women who have multiple abortions.

Here is my idea -
Men obviously don't get care so much about abortions so it's really up to women to keep this whole sex thing regulated. How about after your 2nd abortion, it becomes mandatory for your tubes to be tied so you cannot have any more children. I guarantee that will stop a lot of young girls from having sex altogether and motivate the others to force men to wear condoms, etc...

[Martian]

Its a morality issue. What if the government said its ok to kill all white women between the age of 20 and 30 at your discretion... would you say oh well i dont care because my wife is african american? Seems like a pretty selfish point of view. The democratic party calls themselves the party for women but then they have supporters like you who really don't care at all.
Yeah, those are two comparable situations:smashfrea
You can not carry a child to term, you can never comprehend the emotions that woman go through. Your morality is nothing more than a religious self righteous born emotional viewpoint. You see yourself having a higher function than every other organism on this planet. I got news for you. Life will still exist without you and me. We are not the end all of existence.
Try showing some real compassion, and stay out of womans lives. Its their choice to make, no one is being forced to have an abortion. If there are, then that is illegal and the person forcing the woman should be aborted themselves.

Let it be known that I can respect viewpoints such as yours. With the law as it currently stands, you can have your beliefs, I can have mine. Woman can make their own choice based on their beliefs. I do however have an issue with people who share your viewpoint, who feel the need to change the law to make woman live according to afformentioned "Morals". This country is about choice, not restriction therof. I don't like or agree with the KKK, but they do however have the right to their own belief. I will respect that right regardless of my opposing viewpoint.

[Conrad]

Its their choice to make, no one is being forced to have an abortion. If there are, then that is illegal and the person forcing the woman should be aborted themselves.

Just playing devils advocate here.

What about the father of that "group of cells, or however you want to put it" What if they believe its the wrong thing to do? Do they not have the right? The woman sure gets the decision to be a mother or not. And then hold him responsible.

[john]

Interesting debate here, and thanks for keeping it (mostly) civil.

[Martian]

Just playing devils advocate here.

What about the father of that "group of cells, or however you want to put it" What if they believe its the wrong thing to do? Do they not have the right? The woman sure gets the decision to be a mother or not. And then hold him responsible.
They do have a say in the matter to an extent. I think the father should have some right to the decision, but not a difinitve last word.

[Conrad]

They do have a say in the matter to an extent. I think the father should have some right to the decision, but not a difinitve last word.

well then whats the point.

Father: If she doesnt want to keep the baby I will love it and raise it.
Mother: I want an abortion
/doctor starts hoover.

[Martian]

The father doesn't have to carry for 9 months either does he. He doesn't have to contend with the health changes/risks either for that matter.

Don't get me wrong, I don't feel its ethical to use abortion as a form of birth control. Especially considering the plethera of options available to the female population. But I also don't believe its ethical to tell someone what to do with their body.

[Weston-work]

Weston, the whole point of a abortion is to prevent it from getting that far.

People who get abortions are far more likely to lose their job, go insane, and start doing coke, thus they are unfit to be parents. Abortions stem that problem

But they were good loving parents and wanted the child for the first 10 years, maybe they were even married and planned to have the kid... but then they just sort of lost it and became horrible parents years later, necessitating a 30th trimester abortion.


Maybe for once you could NOT twist everyone's words to make what they said fit your agenda? You're like a god damned retarded John McCain campaign manager.

It's more entertaining that way, but it also illustrates a real point... We don't know the future, and the case being made for having an abortion because the parents may be unfit is equally valid (or rather, invalid) as the case for murdering the child years later because the parents are no longer responsible and stable, which I hope we can all agree is ridiculous. We can't know if a fit parent will one day become unfit, or if an unfit parent will clean up their act and give their child a better life than they had, or if the child will grow up to become an amazing person, despite their less than ideal upbringing.


Also, being that John McCain campaign managers are inherently retarded, does calling me a retarded retard cancel it all out?

[Dave_L]

If I got a girl prego and she had an abortion. I'd probably stab her. Ok, maybe I wouldnt stab her but I'd definitely be uber pissed. It was consentual when we had sex and now that she doesnt want to have to bear a child for 9 months, she just kills it? She knew the risks before hand and what might happen. It should be a decision that both people agree on.

It's just like child support/custody. The law always seems to side with the female even when the father is stable and wanting to take care of the kid.

[Weston-work]

If I got a girl prego and she had an abortion. I'd probably stab her. Ok, maybe I wouldnt stab her but I'd definitely be uber pissed. It was consentual when we had sex and now that she doesnt want to have to bear a child for 9 months, she just kills it? She knew the risks before hand and what might happen. It should be a decision that both people agree on.

It's just like child support/custody. The law always seems to side with the female even when the father is stable and wanting to take care of the kid.

:werd: You don't want to stab her though... that's what got you into this whole mess. :D

[Martian]

If I got a girl prego and she had an abortion. I'd probably stab her. Ok, maybe I wouldnt stab her but I'd definitely be uber pissed. It was consentual when we had sex and now that she doesnt want to have to bear a child for 9 months, she just kills it? She knew the risks before hand and what might happen. It should be a decision that both people agree on.

It's just like child support/custody. The law always seems to side with the female even when the father is stable and wanting to take care of the kid.
Perhaps you should have made a more informed decision on whom you had consenting sex with then.

[Dave_L]

Good point josh. I guess I'll make a survey that each girl has to fill out before I sex them up. The questions included will be along the lines of:

1. Do you understand the risk of having sex with me?
2. If you answered yes to the first question, do you truely understand the risk? Risk meaning you *could* get pregnant from this?
3. If you answered no to the first question, please leave now.
4. How do you feel about abortion?
5. Are you ok with me beating the shit out of you if you have an abortion?


That should eliminate any questionable girls and help me pick the right ones to have intercourse with.

[Martian]

Just make sure they sign it and get it notorized.

[Conrad]

Perhaps you should have made a more informed decision on whom you had consenting sex with then.

True... but people make mistakes... It should be up to both how to proceed not just the one.

[jackmode9316]

I definitely agree that both parties should have a say in things. I met a guy once that was in that scenario. She got preggo, and didn't want the kid. He offered to take the kid 100%. He even said he would take $care$ of her(without being "With" her) while she was pregnant.
Dumb bitch hauled off and had the abortion anyways. He was obviously devastated.
I am with dave. I would be one very angry S.O.B. if I was in a similar scenario.

[Street_Kings]

What separates us from animals is that we even have the ability to have this conversation, reason, emotion, etc etc...

...What is the proof that it isn't? It goes both ways...


Based on what you defined the difference between human and animals (which I completely agree with, BTW), I can contend that abortion within the first 4 weeks can be considered moral. It is very well known that all cognitive abilities, including the abilities you cited as differentiating the human species from animals, is controlled by the brain. However, the brain does not exist in the fetus until the 5th week; which makes it simply cells and not yet human based on your own definition of the word.


Basically all forms of birth control are in a sense abortion minus condoms since they prevent the sperm from coming in contact with the egg. All others kill the cell or flush it out.


You are honestly the first pro-lifer to agree that birth controls and many contraceptives are basically abortions. I wonder how many pro-life advocates in this discussion feel the same way?

I'd hope now that my reasoning is clear. Why is it acceptable for some pro-life advocates to consider hormonal contraceptives that basically prevent the fertilized egg to implant to the wall, but become appalled when the fertilized cell is removed from other women? At which point does it become wrong? All things considered, those who are fine with birth control should also be fine with first month abortions, as they are essentially the same thing.

Many pro-life advocates argue that "playing god" is immoral, or that although the fetus may not be a human yet, the act of having an abortion is still murder as you are effectively denying the fetus the chance to grow and become a human.

Would condoms then be manslaughter? Essentially you are still "playing god" by controlling if the chance of life shall occur or not, and you are also still effectively denying the chance for life?

[bd_240]

Based on what you defined the difference between human and animals (which I completely agree with, BTW), I can contend that abortion within the first 4 weeks can be considered moral. It is very well known that all cognitive abilities, including the abilities you cited as differentiating the human species from animals, is controlled by the brain. However, the brain does not exist in the fetus until the 5th week; which makes it simply cells and not yet human based on your own definition of the word.



You are honestly the first pro-lifer to agree that birth controls and many contraceptives are basically abortions. I wonder how many pro-life advocates in this discussion feel the same way?

I'd hope now that my reasoning is clear. Why is it acceptable for some pro-life advocates to consider hormonal contraceptives that basically prevent the fertilized egg to implant to the wall, but become appalled when the fertilized cell is removed from other women? At which point does it become wrong? All things considered, those who are fine with birth control should also be fine with first month abortions, as they are essentially the same thing.

Many pro-life advocates argue that "playing god" is immoral, or that although the fetus may not be a human yet, the act of having an abortion is still murder as you are effectively denying the fetus the chance to grow and become a human.

Would condoms then be manslaughter? Essentially you are still "playing god" by controlling if the chance of life shall occur or not, and you are also still effectively denying the chance for life?


Yes i agree that the brain obviously controls the things that make us humans, i would not say that is the beginning of life. Lets define the word life in scientific terms, since we can't argue with science.

1. Highly organized.
2. Ability to acquire materials and energy.
3. Ability to respond to their environment.
4. Ability to reproduce.
5. Ability to adapt.

From conception the cell can do all of these. And since we
have already decided that it is undoubtedly human and wont ever turn
into something else, then it is a human life correct? Case closed.

Wearing a condom is not manslaughter. It is simply keeping the sperm from ever coming in contact with the egg.

[Street_Kings]

And since we
have already decided that it is undoubtedly human and wont ever turn
into something else, then it is a human life correct? Case closed.

Ah, I fully agree mental function is not the deciding factor of life, as we have clarified several times in this thread that animals, bacterium, plants, etc, are all alive, but not human; however, we have also decided that the sole differentiating point that makes a human above and beyond an animal is the consciousness. Without that consciousness, we are not aborting a human, but simply a cluster of cells that has the ability to become a human. However, so does fertilized eggs that are denied the ability to implant due to birth control, but I see no shock pictures of 1 day old eggs being posted? I see no demonization of women on birth control? Preventing the sperm from reaching the egg is in a sense also depriving the ability for a cluster of cells to become a human.

We know that if the implanted fertilized egg was not aborted, barring intervention or complication, it has the ability to cause a sequence of events creating a human.

We know that if a fertilized egg was not prevented from implanting, barring intervention or complication, it has the ability to cause a sequence of events creating a human.

We know that if sperm was now prevented from reaching an egg, barring intervention or complicaiton, it has the ability to cause a sequence of events creating a human.

However, abortion, birth control, and condoms, respectively, prevent such from happening. Why is it morally acceptable to prevent the reproductive process at some points, but not others?

[Martian]

Yes i agree that the brain obviously controls the things that make us humans, i would not say that is the beginning of life. Lets define the word life in scientific terms, since we can't argue with science.

1. Highly organized.
2. Ability to acquire materials and energy.
3. Ability to respond to their environment.
4. Ability to reproduce.
5. Ability to adapt.

From conception the cell can do all of these. And since we
have already decided that it is undoubtedly human and wont ever turn
into something else, then it is a human life correct? Case closed.

Wearing a condom is not manslaughter. It is simply keeping the sperm from ever coming in contact with the egg.
In that case you abort life everytime you sneeze, shed skin cells, lose a hair, take a step, drink a beer, cut your grass, ect......... A new definition perhaps is needed on your part? Otherwise I'll have to start calling you baby killer.















Baby killer

[Stroodle]

Mary got pregnant from a kid named Tom
Who said he was in love
He said "Don't worry about a thing, baby doll
I'm the man you've been dreamin' of,"
But three months later
He said he won't date her or return her call
And she sweared "God damn, if I find that man
I'm cuttin' off his balls,"
And then she heads for the clinic
And she gets some static walkin' through the doors
They call her a killer, and they call her a sinner
And they call her a whore

God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes
'Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to choose

[chris]

i base all of my decisions on song lyrics, cause celebrities and song writers are so wise.

[Stroodle]

Democrats aren't that religious, we have to turn to celebrities for advice.

[bd_240]

Ah, I fully agree mental function is not the deciding factor of life, as we have clarified several times in this thread that animals, bacterium, plants, etc, are all alive, but not human; however, we have also decided that the sole differentiating point that makes a human above and beyond an animal is the consciousness. Without that consciousness, we are not aborting a human, but simply a cluster of cells that has the ability to become a human. However, so does fertilized eggs that are denied the ability to implant due to birth control, but I see no shock pictures of 1 day old eggs being posted? I see no demonization of women on birth control? Preventing the sperm from reaching the egg is in a sense also depriving the ability for a cluster of cells to become a human.

We know that if the implanted fertilized egg was not aborted, barring intervention or complication, it has the ability to cause a sequence of events creating a human.

We know that if a fertilized egg was not prevented from implanting, barring intervention or complication, it has the ability to cause a sequence of events creating a human.

We know that if sperm was now prevented from reaching an egg, barring intervention or complicaiton, it has the ability to cause a sequence of events creating a human.

However, abortion, birth control, and condoms, respectively, prevent such from happening. Why is it morally acceptable to prevent the reproductive process at some points, but not others?


Yes, consciousness is the deciding factor between humans and animals. However i dont believe that just because the cluster of cells is not conscious, it's not human. It was created by a human sperm fertilizing a human egg, which begins the growth of another human. Yes it's a very early stage of growth but why just because its not conscious does that exclude it from being human? I guess its just a matter of opinion, but i would still say that it being human cells, in a human body, created by humans...

The difference between condoms and birth control are fact the process begins with birth contol. Yes, in theory both prevent the human from growing and being an individual. But birth control stops the process, condoms prevent it.

[InRox01]

i like how guys have all these opinions about abortions and they dont even know what its like? when did yall get vag's

;SwallOw:

[InRox01]

That song sucks, thanks for making me read it "chicken: Mary got pregnant from a kid named Tom
Who said he was in love
He said "Don't worry about a thing, baby doll
I'm the man you've been dreamin' of,"
But three months later
He said he won't date her or return her call
And she sweared "God damn, if I find that man
I'm cuttin' off his balls,"
And then she heads for the clinic
And she gets some static walkin' through the doors
They call her a killer, and they call her a sinner
And they call her a whore

God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes
'Cause then you really might know what it's like to have to choose

[jackmode9316]

when did yall get vag's

;SwallOw:
There was a group special 2 weeks ago, you didn't get the memo?

[InRox01]

There was a group special 2 weeks ago, you didn't get the memo?

LMAO .

[bd_240]

i like how guys have all these opinions about abortions and they dont even know what its like? when did yall get vag's

;SwallOw:


So Abe lincoln should have kept slavery legal since he wasn't black and it didn't effect him... guess he should have minded his own business :rolleyes:

[chrisbarnett01]

Also, being that John McCain campaign managers are inherently retarded, does calling me a retarded retard cancel it all out?

LOL. best response ever to being called retarded.