Universal Health Care

[Brandon]

We haven't had a new political thread for atleast 2 days now :D

Discuss....

[sbiggi]

Thats the main thing I dont like about Obama.

I have health insurance, and I pay for it along with my work. Fuck the governement for wanting to take more of my money. I didnt have health insurance that was worth a shit for a while till I WORKED and got a better job and career.

[crxrocks]

Thats the main thing I dont like about Obama.

I have health insurance, and I pay for it along with my work. Fuck the governement for wanting to take more of my money. I didnt have health insurance that was worth a shit for a while till I WORKED and got a better job and career.

*clap clap* +1 for personal responsibility.

[Martian]

McCain and Obama have virtually the same plan for healthcare. They both suck.

[89civicsi]

:werd: my work pays for 100% of mine right now...so im lucky

[Conrad]

McCain and Obama have virtually the same plan for healthcare. They both suck.


actually they dont... but ok

[89civicsi]

politics suck...

[Nick_S]

Mccain sucks!

[bd_240]

McCain and Obama have virtually the same plan for healthcare. They both suck.

How are they virtually the same? Just because they both say they want to make it affordable and no american should be turned down? I think you should look into it a little more...

[ryanman]

Obama sucks wayyy fuckin more then McCain.

[89civicsi]

politics suck...

[john]

Man - someone starts a thread for some discussion and all you guys can come up with is "He/she sucks."

A sad state of affairs.

[myshtern]

McCain and Obama have virtually the same plan for healthcare. They both suck.

Not even close

[Brandon]

Man - someone starts a thread for some discussion and all you guys can come up with is "He/she sucks."

A sad state of affairs.

I didn't have high expectations from HAI and I didn't put it in the serious forum. :D

I'll write up some thoughts and post em up later of why I'm against it based on what I know or think I know.

[Martian]

For anyone saying I'm wrong you need to read their respective websites. The only real difference between their plans are how they will pay for it.

[chrisbarnett01]

The only real difference between their plans are how they will pay for it.

That's like saying california and colorado are the same exact state except that they only differ in shape.

[myshtern]

For anyone saying I'm wrong you need to read their respective websites. The only real difference between their plans are how they will pay for it.

You cannot be more wrong, they are polar opposites when it comes to healthcare. John McCain wants more privatization, Obama wants guaranteed public welfare.

[Brandon]

No one could be more inefficient and wasteful than the US government if they tried. I've dealt with government entities and have heard "we need to spend money or we'll lose our budget" more times than I can count. In 2003, our government couldn't account for almost 25 billion in spending. It got spent somehow but no one knows by who or on what.

Universal health care (UHC) is clearly not working in Canada or the UK. I don't think I need to give examples unless someone thinks that it is indeed working in those countries…?

UHC makes your problems my problems. Campaign for tobacco free kids says that almost $100 billion/year is spent on health care due to smoking; a different site said $137 billion. The same can be said for alcoholism at $22.5 billion/year. I don’t smoke and don’t want to pay for the health care of people who do as the people who don’t drink shouldn’t have to pay for my liver transplant.

I think the biggest problem with voting for UHC is that people think everyone having insurance sounds nice, which it does, but that’s where the thought process ends. They don’t think about who’s going to be paying for the 44 million people that currently don’t have health insurance. It won’t be free. The hard working tax payers will be the ones stuck with the bill.

I do think there needs to be some changes to the health care industry but having the already oversized government take it over is not the change I would like to see. I agree with both candidates who want to create some competition in the industry since it’s currently monopolized for the most part.

[Conrad]

For those who want UHC... ask someone in the military about govt provided health care..

[Brandon]

I was going to add something in there about the VA

[Martian]

http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/19ba2f1c-c03f-4ac2-8cd5-5cf2edb527cf.htm

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/

Both want to extend federal coverage to all citizens
Both want to give tax credits and rebates for private insurance
Both want to mandate coverage for children
Obama wants to use Federal employee insurance
McCain wants to extend medicare and medicaid
Both want portability
Both want to widen coverage for those on social security

Where am I wrong here?

[Conrad]

I dont know, but for me the last place I want to get info on the canidate is their propaganda page.

[jackmode9316]

For those who want UHC... ask someone in the military about govt provided health care..
Funny that you mention that, both of my grandparents never really spoke to highly of the Base Doc's, in fact I think they often went to a private practice, or maybe even permanently now.
I will take my private insurance over that any day of the week. But I would sure as hell rather take military health care over nothing.

Especially if I got laid off or something, because the need for health care (for whatever reason) wouldnt exactly take a break when I have no coverage.

I suppose the correct answer to that would be "Sorry about your luck, fuck what you are going through?"
Its really a 2 sided battle with a one sided solution. I suppose we need to give more help to those who need it, while also being more selective about who really needs it.

[Conrad]

I just dont like the fact that people like to make their problems other peoples... Free health care isnt a "right." Your problems are your own just like mine are for me. Because you feel entitled for me to take the brunt of your medical bills in paying my taxes.. fawk you.

[pontiacrapper]

But I would sure as hell rather take military health care over nothing.

obviousely you have never been to a base dr :D just kidding i know the va in cheyenne sucks

[jackmode9316]

Conrad I know what you mean. I do not like being a tow truck any more than the rest.

[Weston-work]

Universal health care (UHC) is clearly not working in Canada or the UK. I don't think I need to give examples unless someone thinks that it is indeed working in those countries…?

What wrong with them? I have no doubt that the movie "Sicko" is biased, but I haven't heard a solid case against the healthcare systems in those other countries. And who's to say that we couldn't do better? We claim to be the greatest country in the world an all...

I want people to have access to the medical care they need, and I'm willing to pay more taxes to make it happen. No one should suffer or die from a curable medical condition just because they are poor, just as no one should go hungry. There will always be poor people, but we can do better, and we can help some of them become not poor. What we really need to do is stop people from gaming the system and ruining things for people who really do need help.

[bd_240]

What wrong with them? I have no doubt that the movie "Sicko" is biased, but I haven't heard a solid case against the healthcare systems in those other countries. And who's to say that we couldn't do better? We claim to be the greatest country in the world an all...

I want people to have access to the medical care they need, and I'm willing to pay more taxes to make it happen. No one should suffer or die from a curable medical condition just because they are poor, just as no one should go hungry. There will always be poor people, but we can do better, and we can help some of them become not poor. What we really need to do is stop people from gaming the system and ruining things for people who really do need help.


Like it or not there will always be people trying to beat the system, thats just how it is. We can do our best to stop them but there are always ways to manipulate.

Yes, there always will be poor people. Why is it your job to take care of them though? Most people that dont have insurance don't even take the time to look because they dont think they'll ever need it, its not that they can't afford it. Then when something happens to them its the governments fault. America is the land of opportunity and if you cant afford insurance then get off your ass and do something about it. I'm all about helping people and what not, but why should i have to pay the medical bills of some drug addict or some fat lady who cant even walk because she stuffs her face all day? People need to take responsibility for their actions. And what about the people who just sit on their ass and live off of welfare because they are too lazy to get a job? Why do they even deserve healthcare?

Here's an article i thought was interesting, its talks about other countries UHC systems http://www.heritage.org/Research/HealthCare/HL711.cfm

[Conrad]

I work with some canadians... they all say their health care sucks... they are happy they get to use our healthcare while here.

[jackmode9316]

Like it or not there will always be people trying to beat the system, thats just how it is. We can do our best to stop them but there are always ways to manipulate.

Yes, there always will be poor people. Why is it your job to take care of them though? Most people that dont have insurance don't even take the time to look because they dont think they'll ever need it, its not that they can't afford it. Then when something happens to them its the governments fault. America is the land of opportunity and if you cant afford insurance then get off your ass and do something about it. I'm all about helping people and what not, but why should i have to pay the medical bills of some drug addict or some fat lady who cant even walk because she stuffs her face all day? People need to take responsibility for their actions. And what about the people who just sit on their ass and live off of welfare because they are too lazy to get a job? Why do they even deserve healthcare?
Would you still think the same way if you lost your job, (and your benefits) but somehow still got sick? Or would you play the whole "Its my fault for not knowing my employment would be terminated" card. Even if you got a new job, it still takes at least a month(if you are extremely super lucky) to be eligable. Medical bills with no insurance could put you under water pretty quickly if something were to happen during that time frame.

We already know who's is better. Obviously our private care blows the Canada healthcare out of the water. This is nothing new.
I would be willing to bet that their healthcare is much better than NO healthcare though, right? As mentioned a before, its a crackdown on WHO gets help, is really what is needed.

[Weston-work]

I work with some canadians... they all say their health care sucks... they are happy they get to use our healthcare while here.

The grass is always greener on the other side. Plenty of Americans say our health care sucks and have found ways to go to Canada for the purpose of using theirs.

[Brandon]

What wrong with them?

I didn't think you were serious until you replied again. Srsly though? I don't want to put too much time into this but how about women in labor being turned away from hospitals because there's no room? 22 month wait time to get an MRI? Hip replacement waiting time is something else ridiculous. Finally, private practice is illegal so even the people that would be happy to pay for private treatment have to go to other countries.

Yes, free crappy health care is better than zero health care.

Would you still think the same way if you lost your job, (and your benefits) but somehow still got sick? Or would you play the whole "Its my fault for not knowing my employment would be terminated" card. Even if you got a new job, it still takes at least a month(if you are extremely super lucky) to be eligable. Medical bills with no insurance could put you under water pretty quickly if something were to happen during that time frame.

I'd be happy to help people while they're down. Our government doesn't understand that concept though. People end up being permanently on welfare and that's what I imagine UHC would end up being like as well. There needs to be an incentives for people to get their act together but there's not. People would rather live a poor to mediocre life without lifting a finger. Are those the types that you want to support?

If you lose your job, I don't think your health insurance can cancel you right away. I've carried cobra insurance for about 8 months between being out of work and being eligible for insurance at the new job. I paid it, I didn't expect you or any other tax payer to carry me.

The grass is always greener on the other side. Plenty of Americans say our health care sucks and have found ways to go to Canada for the purpose of using theirs.

Other than getting prescriptions cheaper and the fact that weed is legal there, do you have examples of people going to Canada for health care and why? I have not read anything like that.

[Martian]

Again, social wellfare vs social assistance.

[myshtern]

Again, social wellfare vs social assistance.
If you want to differentiate between the two, social assistance is exactly what we have today. Poor people are covered but not entirely 100%.

[jackmode9316]

I'd be happy to help people while they're down. Our government doesn't understand that concept though. People end up being permanently on welfare and that's what I imagine UHC would end up being like as well. There needs to be an incentives for people to get their act together but there's not. People would rather live a poor to mediocre life without lifting a finger. Are those the types that you want to support?

I don't disagree that we need to "light a fire" under the ass of the system and those supported by it, but I do not agree that the people who need care should suffer because the ones who take advantage of it. Especially while we(U.S.) continually throw money down the toilet elsewhere. I personally am concerned more about my wasted tax dollars that I already pay now.

[Martian]

You have to pay into the system for social assistance. Wellfare you get because your kids don't deserve the fate you made them.

[HondasTrail]

Would you still think the same way if you lost your job, (and your benefits) but somehow still got sick? Or would you play the whole "Its my fault for not knowing my employment would be terminated" card. Even if you got a new job, it still takes at least a month(if you are extremely super lucky) to be eligable. Medical bills with no insurance could put you under water pretty quickly if something were to happen during that time frame.

Never lost or quit a job that you were paying into for medical benefits I take it?

[Loud_Scott]

You have to pay into the system for social assistance. Wellfare you get because your kids don't deserve the fate you made them.

shoulda chosen the abortion thread and you wouldn't have that problem!

[Loud_Scott]

Other than getting prescriptions cheaper and the fact that weed is legal there, do you have examples of people going to Canada for health care and why? I have not read anything like that.

Do you have proof of all the atrocities that you claim happen in UHC?

I don't understand why no one ever brings up France when they talk UHC. France has one of the best healthcare systems in the world.
It was apparently ranked No 1 in the world in 2000

http://www.ajph.org/cgi/reprint/93/1/31.pdf

The problem is that Americans have grown into dicks. It shouldn't be a problem that you pay a few more tax dollars for UHC. EVERYONE will pay the few more dollars, and thus prices adjust.

I couldn't find any stats on their tax rates in the few minutes I cared enough; (so this is all from 4 years of highschool french/memory) but it's high. MUCH higher than Americans.

And as someone who does work for the gov't and knows about having to spend all the budget money before you lose it... maybe if we fixed all the wasteful shit like THAT, taxes wouldn't have to go up that much because, hey look -- we have billions of UNWASTED money... .

[myshtern]

Do you have proof of all the atrocities that you claim happen in UHC?

I don't understand why no one ever brings up France when they talk UHC. France has one of the best healthcare systems in the world.
It was apparently ranked No 1 in the world in 2000

http://www.ajph.org/cgi/reprint/93/1/31.pdf

The problem is that Americans have grown into dicks. It shouldn't be a problem that you pay a few more tax dollars for UHC. EVERYONE will pay the few more dollars, and thus prices adjust.

I couldn't find any stats on their tax rates in the few minutes I cared enough; (so this is all from 4 years of highschool french/memory) but it's high. MUCH higher than Americans.

And as someone who does work for the gov't and knows about having to spend all the budget money before you lose it... maybe if we fixed all the wasteful shit like THAT, taxes wouldn't have to go up that much because, hey look -- we have billions of UNWASTED money... .
Comparing the French and American cultures is really comparing Apples to Oranges. You're not going to get anything substantive out of it.

[Conrad]

Do you have proof of all the atrocities that you claim happen in UHC?

I don't understand why no one ever brings up France when they talk UHC. France has one of the best healthcare systems in the world.
It was apparently ranked No 1 in the world in 2000

http://www.ajph.org/cgi/reprint/93/1/31.pdf

The problem is that Americans have grown into dicks. It shouldn't be a problem that you pay a few more tax dollars for UHC. EVERYONE will pay the few more dollars, and thus prices adjust.

I couldn't find any stats on their tax rates in the few minutes I cared enough; (so this is all from 4 years of highschool french/memory) but it's high. MUCH higher than Americans.

And as someone who does work for the gov't and knows about having to spend all the budget money before you lose it... maybe if we fixed all the wasteful shit like THAT, taxes wouldn't have to go up that much because, hey look -- we have billions of UNWASTED money... .

The Canadians I work with today told me after I asked the problem with their healthcare is... Its the same as ours but they get taxed more for it.

If they want to see a doctor they go to a govt provided facility that might not be close to where they are at all. If they need a specialist they have to go even farther, waiting times are long, unless you are dieing today. But they also have private practice doctors there which most use anyway because they cant take 2 days off to travel 100 miles to the govt facility or a week off to see the specialist...

Not that I will dispute France UHC ranking... But we are talking the same country that had riots last year because of the unemployment was so high amoungst the young. Because the govt mandated tons of labor rulez on businesses. Also another thing Obama has talked about doing. Forcing companies to hire certain individuals over others.

[Brandon]

I didn't bother to double or triple check my sources but I think everything on the internet is legit. With proof, I welcome any claims that say my references aren't credible.

Do you have proof of all the atrocities that you claim happen in UHC?

Atrocities? LOL do some research if you really cared and weren't just arguing just to argue. Buuuuuuut here's a few just to humor the both of us though.

Here's a couple in Canada suffering from osteoarthritis that paid $35k for hip replacements in Belgium because there was an 18-24 month wait in Canada. It says there's a year wait just to see a specialist so that you can get on the wait list.
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/surgeryabroad.html

Same site, new patients for pulmonary hypertension in the UK will no longer receive the highest level of treatment because it costs too much and they have drug rations.
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/uklungpatient.html

Here's a video of John Stossel about Canadian health care on 20/20 and a few key points:

~Doctor protests in France and Germany because they’re paid less to save money
~Blair promises to reduce wait times to 18 weeks. 18 weeks...wat?
~Shortage of dentists leads to people pulling their own teeth with pliers and vodka.
~I think I’ve already mentioned women in labor being turned away but this touches on that subject too.
~1 million Canadians say they can’t find a regular doctor. My lady was having tummy aches and decided it could be an ulcer. We called a doctor this morning at about 10am and a doctor confirmed the diagnosis this afternoon 6 hours later. Dunno if this is a pro or con for UHC but she doesn't have insurance.
~At 4:39 in the video there’s a lottery for a family doctor LOL
~1 month wait for a CAT scan for a human being (that’s already born :D). 1 day for a dog.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=refrYKq9tZQ

This woman gave birth in her bathroom at home with her b/f because she was turned away at the hospital. The hospital denies it but I read somewhere else (I don't have the source now) that hospitals in Canada commonly reject women in labor because they don't have the capacity.
http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=581054c4-3f61-4758-afea-1348977d76b8
Another:
http://www.komonews.com/news/10216201.html

Here's a documentary with catchy music that interview Canadians about their UHC.
http://onthefencefilms.com/video/deadmeat/deadmeat.html

"A 52-year-old woman in Calgary recalls being in severe need of joint-replacement surgery after the cartilage in her knee wore out. She was put on a wait list and wound up waiting 16 months for the surgery. Her pain was so excruciating, she says, that she was prescribed large doses of Oxycontin, and soon became addicted. After finally getting her operation, she was put on another wait list — this time for drug rehab."
Unfortunately, I couldn't find a real source for this but based on what I've read, I believe it.
http://www.mtv.com/movies/news/articles/1563758/story.jhtml

I don't want to bash Canada too much, they're trying...
This article is from '06 but here they're working to reduce wait times. Hopefully by '08 (now) you can get a hip or knee replacement within 26 months. /sarcasm
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/healthcare/waiting.html

I don't understand why no one ever brings up France when they talk UHC. France has one of the best healthcare systems in the world.
It was apparently ranked No 1 in the world in 2000

http://www.ajph.org/cgi/reprint/93/1/31.pdf


I honestly hadn't looked at France, that's my excuse.
It sounds like it's better as one site claimed that 65% were happy with the health care system as opposed to 40% in the US. I never claimed the US system was perfect or even "good" for that matter, it's ranked 37th. My health insurance costs way more than I think it should. I just don't agree with hand-outs that the tax payers will end up paying for.

"France’s medical costs have been rising sharply, which has led to higher taxes on employers and workers. Meanwhile, the national insurance system has been running deficits since 1985 — it currently stands at $13.5 billion. And practicing medicine in France often isn’t lucrative — French doctors earn on average one-third the pay of their U.S. counterparts."
http://blogs.wsj.com/informedreader/2007/06/29/is-french-health-care-really-better/


The problem is that Americans have grown into dicks. It shouldn't be a problem that you pay a few more tax dollars for UHC. EVERYONE will pay the few more dollars, and thus prices adjust.

Sounds great like that but how about like this:
It costs $10 per person for health care. There's a group of 10 people. 7 pay for their own health care and 3 do not. Then the government says, all 10 of you will be covered for $100. Suddenly either the 3 that didn't pay before have to carry their share or the 7 now carry the share of the other 3. The only way it goes down for the 7 people is if the government can run health care more efficiently than it is as a private sector. Is is just me that thinks that's laughable?

I couldn't find any stats on their tax rates in the few minutes I cared enough; (so this is all from 4 years of highschool french/memory) but it's high. MUCH higher than Americans.

Here I gotcha....
US taxes, 29.1%
France with it’s “free” health care, 50.1%
Hopefully we would have a pretty good UHC if our taxes almost doubled.
http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/Taxes/P148855.asp


And as someone who does work for the gov't and knows about having to spend all the budget money before you lose it... maybe if we fixed all the wasteful shit like THAT, taxes wouldn't have to go up that much because, hey look -- we have billions of UNWASTED money... .

Because that's realistic....? WTF....are you high? When our goverment becomes efficient, you let me know! One of my main reasons for not wanting a UHC is because our government is so wasteful.


Well there's plenty of sources that no one will look into but I'll keep waiting to see those sources that say US citizens go to Canada for health care.