Right to have and raise kids?

[DrJones]

This story (http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_8879794) from the Denver Post got me thinking about a topic I've been curious about in the past.

In that story, two parents of a 4 yr old boy were basically arguing about which gang he should join.

So, the question is, is there a fundamental right to have and raise kids? Should anyone be allowed to be a parent?

We require people to have a license to carry a gun, drive a car even to catch a fish, but anyone can be allowed to have and raise a kid?

Should the law be more strict in this area?

[Bruce_Lee]

Even if the law was more strict......Enforcement would be another issue on its own.
If you cannot enforce the law, what good does it do?

[DrJones]

Even if the law was more strict......Enforcement would be another issue on its own.
If you cannot enforce the law, what good does it do?

Do you think the issue of having bad parents raise kids isn't an important enough issue to at least try and enforce?

[myshtern]

I was actually asking the same question when discussing gays adopting kids

[Bruce_Lee]

Do you think the issue of having bad parents raise kids isn't an important enough issue to at least try and enforce?

Ohh most definently, but who is going to take these kids if the parents are not fit? Is there really a bigger demand for adoption than there is supply?(I know that sounds bad and I hate it, but it gets the point across)Then there is the issues of Women being pregnant who are unfit. What is to come of the child? Would we just inject them with involuntary birth control or something? Another thought would be, what if the parents were fit at one time, but for some reason or other became unfit. This would require on going testing and qualifying. There is just so much to it.

[81RDNK]

The way the U.S. has changed, I think having a child should be a privilege. Not a right. There are so many people out there that would give their left arm to have a child. But they are unable to for some reason or another. And then you have these people that just have kids to collect a check. And I realize that there are exceptions to everything. But for god sake, don’t let un-fit parents have kids. And don’t get me wrong I don’t think we should enforce a law like the Nazi’s did. But something needs to be done.

[Bruce_Lee]

The way the U.S. has changed, I think having a child should be a privilege. Not a right. There are so many people out there that would give their left arm to have a child. But they are unable to for some reason or another. And then you have these people that just have kids to collect a check. And I realize that there are exceptions to everything. But for god sake, don’t let un-fit parents have kids. And don’t get me wrong I don’t think we should enforce a law like the Nazi’s did. But something needs to be done.

I agree, but as mentioned in my other post's, how do we enforce it? It would have to be some kind of involuntary shot or something. Even them, it would only cover the legitimate citizens.
You sig kicks ass by the way.

[81RDNK]

I agree, but as mentioned in my other post's, how do we enforce it? It would have to be some kind of involuntary shot or something. Even them, it would only cover the legitimate citizens.
You sig kicks ass by the way.

I agree with you completely. It’s like “driving” being a privilege. Or so they say. But how many times a week do you hear about someone getting picked up, and not having a license? The states have had laws for years regarding shit like that. And we see how well that is working… So to whoever answers the question, they are smarter than I.

[DrJones]

Just because something isn't 100% enforceable doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

As for who would raise the kids, I think there are plenty of amazing parents who would absolutely love to have the job of raising kids. With all the crap my taxes go towards, I'd be more than willing to dedicate a significant portion to them so that they can do so. IMO being a parent is after all, one of the most important jobs in the world, so why not properly reward qualified people for doing so?

That money would be more than worth it IMO if you look at the future, and how much better society will be. Kids who aren't raised by irresponsible parents will have a much lower chance of having kids they can support at a young age, turning to crime, not getting a proper education, etc.

[Bruce_Lee]

Well I agree Dr. Then we still have to compete with the Human Rights side of things. You know damn well that there will be more than a few that actually will try fight this type of thing. It is of my opinion that convincing the Masses will be a very large obstacle.

[HONDA GHANDI]

Wow, good topic. My instant reaction is to say "Who are we to judge who can and cant be parents." But then I think of the very stringent and restrictive laws (not to mention the ridiculous cost) that barren couples have to go through to have a child. Those people are grilled, dissected financially and emotionally. When they do get rewarded with the privilege to adopt a child they are always better parents to that child because they had to work so hard for that gift. Which makes it an even more depressing sight when two drunk meth heads fuck and produce a baby who is already behind the curve before even seeing the light of day. I know that other countries issue licences or restrictions on childbirth, I wonder what the details are of applications and enforcement.

[HONDA GHANDI]

Hmm, seems one sided of course but interesting articles on China.

http://www.reproductiverights.org/index.html

[myshtern]

I know that other countries issue licences or restrictions on childbirth, I wonder what the details are of applications and enforcement.

What if licenses would only be granted to property owners. Pros? Cons?

[Dillon]

I doubt like that will ever happen in the US, at least not in the near future...although I don't necessarily agree (some people are just not fit to raise children), the majority of the population sees child birth as a fundamental human right. But I think the real question is, would society as a whole be "better" if those who are deemed "unfit" to raise children are forbidden to do so?

[DrJones]

But I think the real question is, would society as a whole be "better" if those who are deemed "unfit" to raise children are forbidden to do so?

Yes. IMO society as a whole would be much better.

Irresponsible parents tend to raise irresponsible kids (that's just how you typically turn out when you don't get the love/nutrition/attention that you need). I'm not saying that's true, but it is in many many cases. Irresponsible kids tend to have lots of kids, and also raise them irresponsibly.

Responsible people tend to wait later in life to have kids, and have fewer.

Basically, if this trend continues, society is IMO doomed.

Note: Before anyone brings it up. I am not saying that if you had a kid at a young age (or know someone who did) that they were being irresponsible. I'm also not saying that good kids can't come from broken homes (or the other way around). I'm simply saying that these are the trends. I think that's an honest assessment, and would go far to describe the rise in many recent statistics (such as how many kids live in a single parent home).

[M@]

I'm not sure how I feel about this. Lots of good thoughts being brought up in this thread though. I've thought about this a few times, and I think generally, it should be a privilege, and not a right. Why? Because like it was previously mentioned, there are too many people out there having children just to collect a check at the end of the day, and that's completely unfair to the child. I know a couple people who cannot have children, or have trouble having children, and they would be GREAT parents... and on the same note, I know a couple.... uhhh... "people" (sluts) that popped out a couple kids and are horrible parents.

Basically, I think there would be no way of enforcing the laws effectively, but I think it would definitely be worth a shot.

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take."

[jackmode9316]

Yes very good topic. I cant wait till tomorrow, when I have more time to read back up and offer some input.

Thank you Dr. Jones for yet another good thread. They always seem to get me thinking. Almost like a college class. LOL

[HONDA GHANDI]

....there are too many people out there having children just to collect a check at the end of the day, and that's completely unfair to the child...

Not to mention the taxpayer. (ahem, ME)


My parents would fall into this group of "irresponsible" kids who may have made a few mistakes. My mom was barely out of high school when I came along. But I think being forced to grow up and face reality made her and my dad better people. I cant argue the statistics but not every child born to a couple of young dummies turns out to be a draw on society. Im not the only example of this, but Im afraid a good argument would be hard to win with as many bad examples there are.

If the government were to institute a population control I would have to be sceptical of the motives. If it would be to keep our numbers down to prevent overpopulation that would be one thing. To strengthen the race through government control is another. I think the Germans tried that once.

[DrJones]

I really don't think too many people have a kid just to get the check. That is just a little added bonus to reward them for their irresponsible behavior.

I'm more concerned about the people who aren't trying to have a kid and aren't mature enough to raise a kid and aren't financially/emotionally ready for a kid and aren't stable enough to raise a kid and go ahead and have a kid by mistake anyway.

[Brandon]

I am a supporter of birth control being in the water. When you've been approved for child birth then you can get a prescription that allows you to get preggers.

My messed up step sister got pregnant right before she had to go to jail so she could be in a different "mother friendly" jail. She didn't even get a check.

[jackmode9316]

I am really on a toss up here. Yes I could see the benefits of such control, but as Tobi mentioned, maybe it is a little too much control. With this you really risk eliminating any chance of those parents actually changing and becoming fit/good parents. It may not happen very often but it does in fact happen.
Think how many times you have heard people say that having a kid saved their lives or made them into a new person? I personally have heard this many upon many of times.
Why? Because for those parents, having that kid gives them a reason to do better. A reason to stop screwing up, per say. A reason to live and love living.
As far as parents who have proven themselves unfit with past children, it would probably be best that they didn't have any more. The extemes are an easy choice, but as we all know, not everything is one extreme or the other.
Alot of exception and circumstance would have to be applied if this were ever implimented because becoming a good parent is not something you just know.....it is something you learn from experience. We couldn't have it be too strict....nor could we have it too lax....
This "Control" would be an extemly complicated puzzle to solve. To be honest, I really WOULD NOT want our politicians calling the shots on this kind of thing, for obvious reasons.

Maybe we could take away the privilage for those people who are on the Extremly bad side of things(Example:Hardcore drug addicts with lots of childern).....and worry about the middle ground later. WHo knows, but it won't be easy.


Just my .02

[myshtern]

I dont know how any sort of enforcement could really work, it would put far more stress on the federal government than anything. Also, to prevent the babies from popping out of drug addicts, you would need to abort them. I'm not sure how they would fly with the religious crowd.

If the abortions weren't to be condemned though, I think a good way would be to collect $1000 for each child as a deposit prior-to or upon birth. Once the child reaches lets say the age of 7 and his/her development is proper then the parents would receive their $1k refunded. To pay for the program, the government would keep the collected interest. If the refund is not given to parents, it's put towards relocating the kid with a family member.

But how would that play out with kids? At a certain age, they might just be separated from their parents because their parents are fuck ups? The $1k wouldnt have an effect on the wealthy, but the wealthy don't have these problems nearly as much.

[jackmode9316]

but the wealthy don't have these problems nearly as much.

Quoted for the exact reason I think that politicians should not be the ones pulling the strings on this one.


In the short run, something like this would be alot of work for the Gov't, buuuuuuut.....if it worked.......in the long run I think it could relieve some work from the Gov't as well. For instance....aid programs like welfare might decline....crime would most likley drop as well....im sure it won't be hard to come up with others.

[M@]

My messed up step sister got pregnant right before she had to go to jail so she could be in a different "mother friendly" jail. She didn't even get a check.

Are you fucking kidding me?! :guns: Yes, I'm saying I'm going to shoot your sister multiple times.

[doogie06]

I am a supporter of birth control being in the water. When you've been approved for child birth then you can get a prescription that allows you to get preggers.

Yes, Yes, Yes...I totally agree. When a couple is ready to try for a child they should go into a hospital/finance person, they do a full background/credit check to make sure you won't be a welfare family for the child's whole life, do a criminal background check, and do a blood draw to make sure you aren't a crack head. Once this all is passed you can have a child.