CAD Programs and Weld Elbows...

[Mahonroy]

I'm wanting to start making turbo exhaust manifolds and need a little advice.

First off, I want to be able to design the manifold flanges on my computer with a CAD program then bring that file (usually a DXF file?) and the steel to a waterjet or laser cutting company and have them cut them out for me. So I was wondering, what do you think is the easiest program to create 2d dxf files for something as simple as a flange? Also, does anyone know of any good companies or people that I can bring this to who could cut them out for me for a fare price?

Second I have been looking to where I can buy weld elbows and T's (schedule 10 or 40) but haven't been having much luck. I'v found a couple places through google but they seem to be too expensive for what it is:
e.g. 10 bucks for each elbow and 23 bucks for each T. Doesn't that seem a bit high for just a mild steel weld el? So was wondering if anyone knows where I can get some for a good price, or even locally would be better.

So yeah any help is greatly appreaciated Thanks!

[wbaldwin_86]

solidworks+cosmos if you are going to make a manifold but
if all you are doing is making flanges just take in an old exhaust manifold gasket and they will be able to make it for you. even easier than that is just buy them premaidhttp://www.roadraceengineering.com/flangesandgaskets.htm
this place i have used before through my old work they are nice guys.
Omnicut Water Jet Technologies
602 W 62nd Ave
Denver, CO 80216
(303) 427-6255

[Brandon]

Sorry baldwin, I'm going to contradict just about everything you posted. Nothing personal :D

Prices on weld els skyrocketed a few years ago. I have ordered them from mcmaster in the past but your pricing sounds about right.

If you need any CAD work, let me know I can do it for you. Solidworks is neat but blows ass as soon as you give it something hard to do. For drawing up flanges, I'd say autocad LT would be your best bet for mainstream programs and isn't that expensive either. Yes, you can send the water cutters a dxf.

Omnicut wouldn't take my money. Maybe they cater more to companies that spend more money *shrug* I would recommend:
High Country Waterjet
4860 Ironton St # G, Denver, CO
(303) 591-4575

Good luck, I've done exactly what you're doing so post up if you have any other questions.

[Mahonroy]

Yeah I've ordered a ton of stuff through them.

The engine is a Beta II engine (Hyundai 2.0 liter), and noone makes exhaust manifold flanges for them, because I would deffinetly just buy them instead for sure. I have exhaust manifolds, and gaskets so its no problem for me to sit down for a couple hours with some calipers and go to town on it.

Also, I would rather someone else CAD it for me, just everywhere I've gone they want to charge me 100 dollars an hour for them to CAD it. I would deffinetly rather save that money and do it myself, plus that would bring the cost up way too high for these flanges.

[wbaldwin_86]

Sorry baldwin, I'm going to contradict just about everything you posted. Nothing personal :D

Prices on weld els skyrocketed a few years ago. I have ordered them from mcmaster in the past but your pricing sounds about right.

If you need any CAD work, let me know I can do it for you. Solidworks is neat but blows ass as soon as you give it something hard to do. For drawing up flanges, I'd say autocad LT would be your best bet for mainstream programs and isn't that expensive either. Yes, you can send the water cutters a dxf.

Omnicut wouldn't take my money. Maybe they cater more to companies that spend more money *shrug* I would recommend:
High Country Waterjet
4860 Ironton St # G, Denver, CO
(303) 591-4575

Good luck, I've done exactly what you're doing so post up if you have any other questions.

hmmm, everything that i have done on solid works has worked great. one of the best things about it is cosmos, it lets you run a stress analysis test on it. Which is very handy when making a prototype part. if you don’t mind me asking what solid works program are you running? i have AutoCAD 2008 and i just don’t like it. but for simple things such as a flange i would use it over solid works its just easier... but making something complex i would use solid works.
as far as getting waterjet stuff done i have never taken anything into omnicut for personal projects. so maybe they just do big money jobs

[BIG T]

omni cut is bad ass had an SR20 exhaust plate made there it was a $100 dollar sale...

[BIG T]

Second I have been looking to where I can buy weld elbows and T's (schedule 10 or 40) but haven't been having much luck.


Would definately suggest getting SCH40 if using carbon steel elbows. Although i would say that SCH10 is fine for Stainless since you won;t really see blow by on the pipes until 2000 degrees.

[Brandon]

I've drawn up assemblies with 50+ parts, put them into cosmosmotion, done simulations, transferred the loads from motion to cosmos works. I can do the same simulation and analysis twice in a row without changing anything and get 2 separate results. Sometimes it will come up with results that just don't make any sense.

For simple stuff, it's awesome.

[wbaldwin_86]

I've drawn up assemblies with 50+ parts, put them into cosmosmotion, done simulations, transferred the loads from motion to cosmos works. I can do the same simulation and analysis twice in a row without changing anything and get 2 separate results. Sometimes it will come up with results that just don't make any sense.

For simple stuff, it's awesome.

oh yeah i havent done anything that crazy, i am still in school getting my ME.
thanks for the info

[Mahonroy]

I've used solid works to make some aluminum intake manifold flanges a while back but it seemed to be a PITA to get it to translate into a 2d project to get to the waterjet. Also though I wasn't too familiar with the program so it could of just been me and my lack of knowledge with the software.

One of the main things I am going for is reliability, so if the schedule 40 will be more reliable because of the thicker meterial then I'll go for it. And yes I am planning on using mild steel for the flanges and the weld els. Other than weight, I don't really see a draw back for using the thicker meterial as it should be stronger?...

[saabracr]

I've drawn up assemblies with 50+ parts, put them into cosmosmotion, done simulations, transferred the loads from motion to cosmos works. I can do the same simulation and analysis twice in a row without changing anything and get 2 separate results. Sometimes it will come up with results that just don't make any sense.

For simple stuff, it's awesome.

Not to mention that with any of the later versions you need a pretty fast PC to even work with large assemblies.

Oh, and there's that BSOD thing too.

It used to be a great program. Design something in 3D easily, convert it to 2D easily. Now with SW2008 they have added so much in the way of rendering and evaluation, but all the old bugs are still there. It just requires an even faster computer to get pissed off by them.

[Mahonroy]

Ok I got my hands on a copy of 2005 Autocad LT so I'm going to attempt to make a flange. Is there anything special that needs to be done with the project so that a waterjet or laser cutting machine can take it? Or if it needs to be converted they will probably mess with the file for me?

[Mahonroy]

I'm going to make a practice file (an exhaust flange). I'm going to save it as a .dxf file, would one of you guys be able to check it for me to make sure that it would be good to go for a waterjet or a laser cutting?

[Mahonroy]

Ok I made a 2 bolt 3" diameter exhaust flange, can someone download it and check it for me please? I'd really appreaciate it!

http://www.jattus.com/dump/2bolt3inch.zip

[Brandon]

Doesn't work here but I'm on an old version of autocad (2000). Try downloading edrawings, it's a free viewing program and open it on there.

[Mahonroy]

Ok I posted another one that should be compatable with 2000:
http://www.jattus.com/dump/2bolt3inch2000.zip

Here is a pic:
http://www.jattus.com/dump/2boltflange.jpg

[Brandon]

That works but you should draw those flats tangent to the curves.

[Mahonroy]

It was just a test file, I'm still learning how to use the program. I can't figure out how to do a couple things such as grouping objects together and be able to type in a location for them. Also I had a hard time figuring out how to split those circles and getting lines to connect the two.

So if I took that file to a shop that would be good enough to send through the CNC machines? Do all the lines have to connect to each other is does it really matter? (for example if there was a gap between two lines that was like 0.001 of an inch)?

Thanks again, if that file is cool I'll start cading up the exhaust manifold flanges.

[Brandon]

i don't know if it will work or not if there's any gaps or over lines like in your flange there. I've never loaded a program on a water cutter but I wouldn't have any gaps in anything I load on a mill.

[saabracr]

It was just a test file, I'm still learning how to use the program. I can't figure out how to do a couple things such as grouping objects together and be able to type in a location for them. Also I had a hard time figuring out how to split those circles and getting lines to connect the two.

So if I took that file to a shop that would be good enough to send through the CNC machines? Do all the lines have to connect to each other is does it really matter? (for example if there was a gap between two lines that was like 0.001 of an inch)?

Thanks again, if that file is cool I'll start cading up the exhaust manifold flanges.

It won't recognize paths if you have gaps in them. Just keep playing with the software until you get it right.

[Mahonroy]

I called High Country Waterjet, and sent them an e-mail with exact details on what I want, and they gave me an estimate for 6 of them made its going to cost around 45 dollars per flange. Seems a little expensive to me since you can generally buy flanges for 30-40 bucks. 45 just to cut it and I have to provide meterial seems a little on the steep side? I also did the same with Omnicut and I am just waiting on the e-mail with a price from them.
What you guys think so far?

[Mahonroy]

Got some stuff waterjetted, quality is awesome, everything came out real nice, would deffinetly recommend them.

Question though, what size weld elbows (like inner diameter) do you guys use for making exhaust turbo manifolds?

[Mahonroy]

Anyone know what is the common size at least?

[Brandon]

Go to mcmastercarr.com and search for schedule 40 weld els. I think 1 1/2 is a good size but it's been years since I've looked into what you're doing.

[aznasinine]

http://www.acestainless.com/index.php

they have a little better pricing then mcmastercarr but they don't sell 45 degree mild steel bends and as brandon said i think 1 1/2 is what is usually used.

[Mahonroy]

Thats a great link thanks!

Had another question... Is there a problem with welding the tubes on the inside and on the outside (for example the tube connecting to the flange)? I realize that most people usually just weld the outside. Only thing I can think of is if a little bit of air gets trapped inbetween the two welds, so when the exhaust manifold gets hot as hell and the air wants to expand, if it will crack or something (if this is even a valid reason at all). Or is there no problem with doing this?

[Mahonroy]

Last question, is using 3/32 (roughly 0.093 of an inch) thick steel for the collector that the turbo flange will be welded to, too thin of a steel? Or is that ok?

[Mahonroy]

Any of you guys that build manifolds know?

[Mahonroy]

Ok here are some pics of my first exhaust manifold I've ever made:

http://www.jattus.com/Performance/emanifold_1.jpg

http://www.jattus.com/Performance/emanifold_2.jpg

http://www.jattus.com/Performance/emanifold_3.jpg

http://www.jattus.com/Performance/emanifold_4.jpg


Was looking to get some advice... The tig welder I'm using has a feature on it that pulses a frequency, I haven't messed with it much, but do you think it would give better looking welds? (e.g. the stacked dimes look). I've heard of some people who weld manifolds that they say you want to do a root, then a cap, but was unsure of what that ment exactly. I also looked at a couple and it seems that they go over it with a weld first just to seal everything up (maybe being the root). Then afterwards they go over it again to make it nice looking (cap maybe?). Definetly would like to know how to make them look better for sure. I mean another option would be to provide a heat shield to go over it, but don't know...