More proof that global warming...

[LOL_ALIAS]

is a bigger scam than we ever thought possible

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7006640.stm

[Brian]

I might be misunderstanding you, but how does that article show that global warming is a scam?

Here are some other articles on the subject by the way.

http://www.tagsum.com/news/search?q=global+warming&t=tags

[M@]

Pretty sure he was being a smart ass... shocking.

[Brian]

ahhh, got ya. Sarcasm is hard to detect on a forum.

[M@]

You need to install Sarcasm Font Plugin v.3.0 beta 2.

[hatchbackgirl]

I have the latest version and I detected the sarcasm immediately.

[Nate]

The thing you guys don't understand is that we are running out of oil. Oil was formed millions of years ago when the world went through extreme global warming and cooked all of the dead animals and fish that were compacted in the earth's sediment. All of that trash was turned into oil. What do you think the "fossil" in fossil fuels means.

Now, we are running out so we must warm the globe to produce more fossil fuels.

[stu]

I'd actually agree with David's statement, sarcastic or not. Global warming is the biggest scam in history. Look at what this asshole says:

"We're on a strong spiral of decline; some would say a death spiral. I wouldn't go that far but we're certainly on a fast track. We know there is natural variability but the magnitude of change is too great to be caused by natural variability alone."

Just because it's not something that's ever been seen by some guy living over the past 50 years, doesn't mean that it's not natural. You think the continents joining together, and splitting apart at least twice had anything to do with humans? That's a MUCH larger deal than some ice melting. Oh yeah, humans weren't around for the first continental split.

[Weston-work]

While I'm sure some things are just nature, you can't pretend that we're not going to see any negative effects from poisoning the hell out of our atmosphere and also killing forests that helped to keep it in balance. Like anything, there's a point where the rate of consumption exceeds the rate of regrowth, and it's not hard to say that we've already passed that point with our environment. The only real debate is how badly we're actually hurting the planet, and how much longer it can take our shit. Do we have 1000 years, or do we only have until "The Day After Tomorrow"... In either case, it's wise to at least try to slow down the rate of consumption and pollution, and assist regrowth, for our own sake and especially our descendants. Unfortunately, most of the problem is caused by larger entities which are only driven by profit, and "going green" isn't as profitable as trashing the place and not cleaning up after themselves.

My personal contribution is the massive weed farm I have growing in my backyard. :D

[M@]

Good point, Weston.. well said.

[myshtern]

While I'm sure some things are just nature, you can't pretend that we're not going to see any negative effects from poisoning the hell out of our atmosphere and also killing forests that helped to keep it in balance. Like anything, there's a point where the rate of consumption exceeds the rate of regrowth, and it's not hard to say that we've already passed that point with our environment. The only real debate is how badly we're actually hurting the planet, and how much longer it can take our shit. Do we have 1000 years, or do we only have until "The Day After Tomorrow"... In either case, it's wise to at least try to slow down the rate of consumption and pollution, and assist regrowth, for our own sake and especially our descendants. Unfortunately, most of the problem is caused by larger entities which are only driven by profit, and "going green" isn't as profitable as trashing the place and not cleaning up after themselves.

My personal contribution is the massive weed farm I have growing in my backyard. :D
My main problem with actually taking massive steps to stopping our pollution is that the people who want to stop the pollution arent even doing most of the polluting anymore.

China finishes construction on 2 coal power plants every week. If every American buys a hybrid car tomorrow, will that even make a dent on things? The European states that are crying about everything have barely any manufacturing power. I guess it's easy to reduce pollution when your citizens are sitting in coffee shops instead of building things.

[stu]

People are going about this whole "going green" stuff the wrong way. It's certainly well intentioned, but it's less than well thought out. People tend to over react to inevitable changes and take on a doomsday mentality. Change is inevitable, period. Even if we never populated the earth, there would be dramatic atmospheric changes. This has been proven over, and over, and over. People say that death and taxes are the only things that are inevitable. I submit to have the saying changed to "Death, taxes, and environmental change."

I agree that using less, and renewable power is a good thing, for the most part. There is a limit though. Cheryl Crow wants people to stop using toilet paper. I see a flyer every day at my work for low flow toilets. If I want to work up a sweat (from plunging a clogged toilet) and have to boil my hands in scalding hot antiseptic (from wiping with my fingers) every morning, I might as well shit in the fucking woods. That completely defeats the purpose of living in a home that has in door plumbing in the first place. We could save resources by no longer paving streets, and just having dirt roads; but that would defeat the purpose of having an organized and efficient network for transportation.

People come up with a ton of shit brained ideas to try and 'help the environment,' that don't actually help at all. Take special interest lanes for instance. HOV lanes are the worst thing to happen to transportation since unregulated intersections (I hope you're listening Montana). The idea of limiting a lane of travel to a minority group of drivers is terrible in that it causes heavier, slower moving traffic. This in turn keeps car in traffic, running no less, for longer periods of time. It hurts everything from the environment, to productivity on all levels, including business and personal. The point of taking the highway is to get to where you are going in the most efficient way possible. Creating stop and go traffic jams, once again, defeats the purpose. Same with a low flow shower head. Cut off my water pressure, and I end up spending more time in the shower than I would have in the first place.

People seem to have this glorified idea of humanity, in that they can convince people to save the environment through a guilt trip. You should car pool to cut down on emissions. Fuck that. I bought my own car so I can go where I need to, when I need to, in the most time efficient way possible. I didn't buy my own car so I could chauffeur other people around and spend extra time making sure everyone's needs are met.

I don't buy recycled products on purpose. Why? Because they are more expensive, and they can't match the quality of something that's not recycled. Everyone gets all up in arms about how great recycling is, without giving even a second thought to the new byproducts and hazardous waste that recycling creates. People say that recycling centers create jobs. If you are happy about creating a job of sorting through trash, then I've got an opening for a team of people to wipe my ass every time I take a shit. I want to be environmentally friendly, so you'll be using your hand of course. Inquire within, management positions available!

Want to know why oil prices are so high? Not because people are trying to come up with alternative fuel sources, but because people are DEMANDING that we do so, and trying to put a time limit on it. Every day I hear some jackass politician trying to win voters by suggesting certain percentages of reusable resources be put into place by a certain year. So now, people are attempting to put a specific time line into place to cut down on oil company prices. Everyone still depends on oil and everyone knows it. The oil companies are also smart enough to know, that everyone one of you, is stupid enough, to believe that there is some oil crisis and our time is limited. There is no energy crisis. There never has been one. Name one natural resource in all of history that we've ever run out of, before technology could come up with a new, better, cheaper, more efficient resource, or way to use the original resource. Guess what? You can't, because it's never happened before. People have their heads too far up their asses to realize this of course. So they run around spewing their 'go green' bullshit, throwing the masses into panic. They expect the worst, then those who control those resources provide the worst; in the form of higher than necessary gas prices. The oil companies know that the end is near, so they're going to wring every last penny, and bit of profit out of the asshole masses until the very end. Any who gives them the power to do that? All the 'go green' assholes who herd the unsuspecting masses into the gasoline price slaughter with their well intentioned, earth friendly messages.

You can't rely on the masses to 'do the right thing' to use less, and do things more efficiently. It won't happen. If you want people to be more efficient with their vehicles, then we need to make the roads more efficient. Eliminating any special interest lanes that take up standard road way would be a tremendous start. The ever expanding light rail is another great way to make travel more efficient. My company is currently promoting so much 'go green' bullshit, that I'm about a slit my wrists with a recycled razor blade, but they repeatedly turn down our requests to work from home.

Again, people have good intentions, but the way things are going now is a waste of time. I've rambled so long now, that I've forgotten all my other good points.

[stu]

I didn't intend my post to sound like I was ranting about traffic (I didn't even get stuck in any traffic jams today, and actually got to work early for once) but I couldn't think of a better example to relate my point to.

Did you know that 40% of all plastics recycled are thrown into dumps anyway because they aren't recyclable? Many people want to do what they think is right, but there is so much bullshit, and propaganda out there, that no one even realizes that they aren't even recycling correctly. Oh wait, I almost forgot. People doing things wrong the first time creates yet another job. Someone to throw something away a second time, because we couldn't put it into the same bin the first time. What a wonderful use of our resources and workforce. At least there will be job openings for people to build and drive more trucks that are designed to carry the same amount of waste. Maybe they'll make a trash truck only lane since we're throwing things away twice now. If I ever lose my job, I'm comforted in the fact that I'll be able to get a job at the sign facility making signs that say "Twice baked garbage trucks only." We'll probably use recycled paint that will peel every two years and have to be replaced 20 times more often. As long as I can do my part though right?

[stu]

And let's not forget that all the people who think they are innocently donating their money to 'go green' foundations, are probably funding terrorist organizations like the Earth Liberation Front (ELF). Who burn down forests to prove that we should be protecting the environment. I actually work with someone stupid enough to think that terrorists like ELF and ALF are justified in their actions.

[M@]

If you are happy about creating a job of sorting through trash, then I've got an opening for a team of people to wipe my ass every time I take a shit. I want to be environmentally friendly, so you'll be using your hand of course. Inquire within, management positions available!


I'm fucking laughing my ass off.

Very well thought-out post, Stuart. I agree with about 90% of the things you've said. I don't usually make big long thought-out posts like yours, and I'm not going to this time either because you've sort of hit the nail on the head better than any other responses I've seen in here thus far.

[stu]

I tried to keep the sarcasm, and ridiculous examples to a minimum. I'm glad you were able to feel my overall point though. I was particularly proud of the quoted comment by the way. :D

[M@]

Want to know why oil prices are so high? Not because people are trying to come up with alternative fuel sources, but because people are DEMANDING that we do so, and trying to put a time limit on it. Every day I hear some jackass politician trying to win voters by suggesting certain percentages of reusable resources be put into place by a certain year. So now, people are attempting to put a specific time line into place to cut down on oil company prices. Everyone still depends on oil and everyone knows it. The oil companies are also smart enough to know, that everyone one of you, is stupid enough, to believe that there is some oil crisis and our time is limited. There is no energy crisis. There never has been one. Name one natural resource in all of history that we've ever run out of, before technology could come up with a new, better, cheaper, more efficient resource, or way to use the original resource. Guess what? You can't, because it's never happened before. People have their heads too far up their asses to realize this of course. So they run around spewing their 'go green' bullshit, throwing the masses into panic. They expect the worst, then those who control those resources provide the worst; in the form of higher than necessary gas prices. The oil companies know that the end is near, so they're going to wring every last penny, and bit of profit out of the asshole masses until the very end. Any who gives them the power to do that? All the 'go green' assholes who herd the unsuspecting masses into the gasoline price slaughter with their well intentioned, earth friendly messages.

This forces me to wonder things such as timeframes, though. When you say we've never run out of a natural resource, and while this may be true, do you consider the fact that the automobile was only invented a measily 100 years ago? Do you take into consideration population increase? The worlds population is MUCH larger than the population 100 years ago, let alone 200, 500, 1,000, etc. Not to mention natural resources weren't even really used at those points in time (at least not NEAR the usage of what is used today, which also presents questions about emissions, etc.).

The point I'm trying to make is, if population is blowing up this rapidly, and shows no signs of slowing down... who's to say that our first natural resource "crisis" isn't really knocking at our door? I do believe there will be a more efficient energy found very soon to replace/take over some of oil's uses (gasoline, etc.).

[stu]

You make a strong point. Just because it hasn't happened in our history, does not mean that it can't or won't happen. *I made the same point about the ice melting* There are a couple things to consider in your scenario. First, the population is booming, but not every where. The last I heard, Europe isn't even reporting any population growth. Second, we have used natural resources since the invent of tools. Wood for ships, weapons, homes, tools. Animals for tools, clothing, and food. Agriculture for food. Steel and Iron for tools, ships, weapons, etc. Kerosene, coal, wood, water, and any other number of things for power generation.

Every single resource we've ever used has started out horribly inefficient, but it always gets better until we drop the resource and move onto something more efficient. Just look at the automobile as an example. How do you think the picture would be today, if vehicles started out as efficient as they are now, 100 years ago? That's really besides the point though. You mention the population boom, and how we are using millions of times the energy that we ever have before. This is true, but we're also much better at it. Oil companies are always looking for new oil wells to tap to provide the world with this resource. Of all the oil we use every year, how much would you guess comes from brand new wells that have never been taped before? Surprisingly, it's only 13%. Out of all the oil we as a planet use every year, only 13% of it is from new wells. Everything else comes from wells that we've already tapped. What happens is the technology gets better, so we can go back and squeeze more product out of a well that was previously thought to be 'dried up.' This is an amazing example of technology's ability to match our resource needs.

All that bullshit you hear about when we'll run out of oil is a specifically designed propaganda designed to create fear in the population. Those predictions are based off of what we have today, given the circumstances, that NO new 'wells' are discovered, and NO new technology is created. How accurate can that prediction be when 87% of our yearly oil supply is gathered through the use of ever changing techniques? Sure we could run out of oil in 70 years, if everyone stopped looking for it, and new ways to gather and refine it.

History also shows that of nearly all the resources we've ever used, there has been a fear of a shortage. Remember the Boston Tea Massacre?

People purposely put out misleading studies and reports of environmental facts. Remember when Al Gore got onto the scissor lift to show the increase of carbon dioxide in the air? It had more than doubled right? Did anyone ever take a minute to research what percentage of the atmosphere is made up of carbon dioxide? I honestly don't know the specific numbers. I'd like someone to find something and post it here. Let me ask you this though. If the atmosphere is made up of something like 70% nitrogen, 20% oxygen, and 10% trace gases like Carbon dioxide, is it really as big of a deal as people make it out to be when Carbon dioxide levels have increased from 0.01% to 0.03% of the entire composition of the atmosphere?

I once read an example of how the atmosphere is composed, using a football field as an analogy. Nitrogen alone takes you to the 70 yard line, oxygen takes you to the ten yard line, the few other significant gases take you to the goal line, and the amount of carbon dioxide has more than doubled, making it's total contribution to the make up of the atmosphere the width of a pencil relative to the football field. Better go buy a hybrid.

[stu]

Also M@, we've been using oil long before the automobile was invented. Before we figured out how to distill gasoline from crude oil, we just put it aside and burned it. It's not that it wasn't being used. It was just being thrown away.

If you want to read depressing statistics, read about the water levels of underground water tables, and how much it takes to water for all the farms we have in the midwest.

Anyone interested in how much bullshit this global warming craze is, should read "State of Fear" by Michael Crichton. It is just a novel, but every point and example brought up in the novel, is cited by actual studies and there are about 10 pages of sources in the back of the book. That's where the football field example comes from. It was cited of course.

[M@]

Are we talking a pencil like this:

http://www.culverco.com/images_lg/82460.jpg

...or like THIS:

http://www.rkdm.com/giantpencil/giantpencil.jpg

I kid, I kid.

The Boston Tea Massacre is actually a very great point.. but I'm not so sure it's quite in the same category of significance as oil.

[stu]

Tell that to the people who had to pay a premium for tea at the time. Today it may not be comparable, but it still engraved itself into our history books. Our alleged oil shortage won't seem like a big deal the very second something comes along to replace it. Especially considering the very likely probability that we will have never actually ran out of it.

[M@]

Good point... good point.

[Weston-work]

People are going about this whole "going green" stuff the wrong way. It's certainly well intentioned, but it's less than well thought out. People tend to over react to inevitable changes and take on a doomsday mentality. Change is inevitable, period. Even if we never populated the earth, there would be dramatic atmospheric changes. This has been proven over, and over, and over. People say that death and taxes are the only things that are inevitable. I submit to have the saying changed to "Death, taxes, and environmental change."

I agree that using less, and renewable power is a good thing, for the most part. There is a limit though. Cheryl Crow wants people to stop using toilet paper. I see a flyer every day at my work for low flow toilets. If I want to work up a sweat (from plunging a clogged toilet) and have to boil my hands in scalding hot antiseptic (from wiping with my fingers) every morning, I might as well shit in the fucking woods. That completely defeats the purpose of living in a home that has in door plumbing in the first place. We could save resources by no longer paving streets, and just having dirt roads; but that would defeat the purpose of having an organized and efficient network for transportation.

People come up with a ton of shit brained ideas to try and 'help the environment,' that don't actually help at all. Take special interest lanes for instance. HOV lanes are the worst thing to happen to transportation since unregulated intersections (I hope you're listening Montana). The idea of limiting a lane of travel to a minority group of drivers is terrible in that it causes heavier, slower moving traffic. This in turn keeps car in traffic, running no less, for longer periods of time. It hurts everything from the environment, to productivity on all levels, including business and personal. The point of taking the highway is to get to where you are going in the most efficient way possible. Creating stop and go traffic jams, once again, defeats the purpose. Same with a low flow shower head. Cut off my water pressure, and I end up spending more time in the shower than I would have in the first place.

People seem to have this glorified idea of humanity, in that they can convince people to save the environment through a guilt trip. You should car pool to cut down on emissions. Fuck that. I bought my own car so I can go where I need to, when I need to, in the most time efficient way possible. I didn't buy my own car so I could chauffeur other people around and spend extra time making sure everyone's needs are met.

I don't buy recycled products on purpose. Why? Because they are more expensive, and they can't match the quality of something that's not recycled. Everyone gets all up in arms about how great recycling is, without giving even a second thought to the new byproducts and hazardous waste that recycling creates. People say that recycling centers create jobs. If you are happy about creating a job of sorting through trash, then I've got an opening for a team of people to wipe my ass every time I take a shit. I want to be environmentally friendly, so you'll be using your hand of course. Inquire within, management positions available!

Want to know why oil prices are so high? Not because people are trying to come up with alternative fuel sources, but because people are DEMANDING that we do so, and trying to put a time limit on it. Every day I hear some jackass politician trying to win voters by suggesting certain percentages of reusable resources be put into place by a certain year. So now, people are attempting to put a specific time line into place to cut down on oil company prices. Everyone still depends on oil and everyone knows it. The oil companies are also smart enough to know, that everyone one of you, is stupid enough, to believe that there is some oil crisis and our time is limited. There is no energy crisis. There never has been one. Name one natural resource in all of history that we've ever run out of, before technology could come up with a new, better, cheaper, more efficient resource, or way to use the original resource. Guess what? You can't, because it's never happened before. People have their heads too far up their asses to realize this of course. So they run around spewing their 'go green' bullshit, throwing the masses into panic. They expect the worst, then those who control those resources provide the worst; in the form of higher than necessary gas prices. The oil companies know that the end is near, so they're going to wring every last penny, and bit of profit out of the asshole masses until the very end. Any who gives them the power to do that? All the 'go green' assholes who herd the unsuspecting masses into the gasoline price slaughter with their well intentioned, earth friendly messages.

You can't rely on the masses to 'do the right thing' to use less, and do things more efficiently. It won't happen. If you want people to be more efficient with their vehicles, then we need to make the roads more efficient. Eliminating any special interest lanes that take up standard road way would be a tremendous start. The ever expanding light rail is another great way to make travel more efficient. My company is currently promoting so much 'go green' bullshit, that I'm about a slit my wrists with a recycled razor blade, but they repeatedly turn down our requests to work from home.

Again, people have good intentions, but the way things are going now is a waste of time. I've rambled so long now, that I've forgotten all my other good points.


:werd: People get too focused on the petty stuff. And speaking of stupidity with traffic design, why the hell is it that a "highway" can have a stop light every 100 feet!? I am sick and tired of highways being no different than an 4 lane city street. The whole point of a highway is to go longer distances at a higher speed, and ideally with no stopping along the way. When there's several stop lights in less than a mile, that ruins the whole point of having a highway! We waste so much time and gas sitting at red lights on what are supposed to be high-capacity and efficient routes.

As for alternative and renewable fuels, we really already have everything we need... it's just a matter of people being willing to get off their asses and do it, and/or ignoring the fact that fossil fuels are generally easier and cheaper. We are bombarded with sunlight, wind, and chemical energy which we don't even attempt to harness. And then there's the fact that pretty much everything we do creates waste heat, so we have an abundance of it and we just send it out a vent and throw away. Then we actually pay for energy to make heat for furnances, ovens, etc. If we had a system to capture our waste heat and pipe it to where we actually want it, that would certainly be a lot more efficient, but energy costs aren't high enough to get the wheels turning on that. Even the waste heat in cars (which there is a ton of) can be used to create electricity (and other things)... enough that you could free up a few HP and MPG by replacing the alternator with a heat convertor. The catch is that it's several hundred dollars more expensive to do that, so it would take too long to pay off, even with $3/gallon gasoline. A lot of the fuel efficiency technology that we see being promoted today isn't really that new... what's new is the fact that it's now becoming profitable to implement it.

[stu]

The key to developing new technologies is to make them profitable. At least as much effort and research should be put into profitability as anything else if anyone ever wants to use a different resource.

Weston, I'm surprised, I didn't think you'd agree with me.

[stu]

The thing you guys don't understand is that we are running out of oil. Oil was formed millions of years ago when the world went through extreme global warming and cooked all of the dead animals and fish that were compacted in the earth's sediment. All of that trash was turned into oil. What do you think the "fossil" in fossil fuels means.

Now, we are running out so we must warm the globe to produce more fossil fuels.

Even though you wrote this as a joke, people tend to forget that fossil fuels are refined out of what is waste. Millions of years of dead plant and animal parts that were never completely decomposed. People say we should look into using renewable energy and recycle more. Trees are renewable. People don't like the idea of land fills. The very resource that we rely on is literally trash that is millions of years old. We spend billions of dollars a year recycling it. Besides all the uses that man has come with out of crude oil, what other benefit is it to the earth? People get upset when they see oil rainbows in stream water or something, and talk about preservation of the earth. If we preserved everything the way people would like to in their fairy tale fantasies, all that oil would be in the ground anyway wouldn't it?

[Zach]

"According to the Food and Agriculture Organization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_and_Agriculture_Organization) of the United Nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations), the livestock industry is responsible for 18 percent of greenhouse gas emissions measured in CO₂ equivalent, a higher share than transportation"