Curing Christians?

[DrJones]

Does anyone know of any camps or anything where Christians can go to get cured? I know Christians run lots of camps curing other people of their disorders, but haven't heard of any from the other side.

If there isn't one, we should start one. People who are Christian and don't want to be should be able to get help fixing themselves from their abnormality.

[Street_Kings]

How does this kind of crap fly in the serious corner?

if you're going to randomly troll and attempt to stir up yet more religious v athiest bullshit, at least do it in shit talking.

[stu]

It's a valid question. Homosexuals are sent to the camps he's referring to all the time.

[DrJones]

How does this kind of crap fly in the serious corner?

if you're going to randomly troll and attempt to stir up yet more religious v athiest bullshit that you're so good at, at least do it in shit talking.

I thought it was a good way to bring up what IMO is a very serious topic. Should I of used the <sarcasm> tags? I'm sure you realize that if such a camp did exist, it would be brought up in the media and attacked by all kinds of people (kind of like how you did in your post). Yet, other camps that IMO are just as offensive, are allowed to go on, and in many ways contributed to by some people very high up in our government.

If people don't want to discuss the topic, they can ignore it.

So, for the discussion. Let's say there was a camp, run by gay people, who's mission and goal was to 'cure' Christians. Let's say there is someone who was raised as one and just kind of brought into it, and realizes that, and wants to change and understand the world in a different way. The camp could assist them in doing so. Would that be offensive to you?

[Weston-work]

How does this kind of crap fly in the serious corner?

if you're going to randomly troll and attempt to stir up yet more religious v athiest bullshit, at least do it in shit talking.

:werd:

[Street_Kings]

I thought it was a good way to bring up what IMO is a very serious topic. Should I of used the <sarcasm> tags? I'm sure you realize that if such a camp did exist, it would be brought up in the media and attacked by all kinds of people (kind of like how you did in your post). Yet, other camps that IMO are just as offensive, are allowed to go on, and in many ways contributed to by some people very high up in our government.

If people don't want to discuss the topic, they can ignore it.

and what exactly do you hope to gain from this particular topic?



I can guarantee you there's anti-christian camps/reeducation centers in other parts of the world, the middle-east definately. The thought of an anti-christian camp here outrages people because, well, america is a christian nation. Try opening one in the middle east, you'll get praise, and all will be well. Then try to open an anti-muslim reeducation center and watch your family be eaten alive.

Based on the contents of your posts that i've read in the past, I understand that for some reason you are extremely anti-religion. Whatever, you can believe what you want, and so can everyone else. However, the end fact that is irrefutable is that America, always has been, and always will be, extremely Christian influenced. The middle east has always been, and always will be, extremely Muslim influenced. The far east has always been, and always will be, extremely Buddhist influenced.

[stu]

and what exactly do you hope to gain from this particular topic?
What does one stand to gain from any topic posted anywhere?




I can guarantee you there's anti-christian camps/reeducation centers in other parts of the world, the middle-east definately. The thought of an anti-christian camp here outrages people because, well, america is a christian nation. Try opening one in the middle east, you'll get praise, and all will be well. Then try to open an anti-muslim reeducation center and watch your family be eaten alive. They do have anti-muslim camps, they're called missions.



Based on the contents of your posts that i've read in the past, I understand that for some reason you are extremely anti-religion. Whatever, you can believe what you want, and so can everyone else. However, the end fact that is irrefutable is that America, always has been, and always will be, extremely Christian influenced. The middle east has always been, and always will be, extremely Muslim influenced. The far east has always been, and always will be, extremely Buddhist influenced.

What does any of this have to do with the thread topic?

[Street_Kings]

So, for the discussion. Let's say there was a camp, run by gay people, who's mission and goal was to 'cure' Christians. Let's say there is someone who was raised as one and just kind of brought into it, and realizes that, and wants to change and understand the world in a different way. The camp could assist them in doing so. Would that be offensive to you?


Not at all. With the exception of the homosexuals thing, we have such a system in the form of public schools. No religion is taught, nor is it discussed. The basics and in some cases advanced discussion and principals of evolution are, though. Some may argue that it's also a "Darwinistic Training Grounds" if you want to get all radical with shit.



What does any of this have to do with the thread topic?


DrJones stated: Yet, other camps that IMO are just as offensive, are allowed to go on, and in many ways contributed to by some people very high up in our government.

The point that i'm trying to make is that what we deem acceptable/not acceptable is largely based on the area we live in. Missions exist as a mechanism for christians to spread their religion, yes. Please show me where the missions are in heavily muslim areas. For instance, if i were visiting iraq, where would I find a mission? They kill EACHOTHER for minor details of the SAME god, I'd highly suspicion that they'd readily blow up any religious institution trying to preach "cure yourself from islam, there is no allah" instantly. However, in New Mexico, Missions/Churches/etc are all over the place.

[DrJones]

and what exactly do you hope to gain from this particular topic?

I hope to gain the same thing I always hope to gain posting these threads. That is to have a better understanding of someone's viewpoint that differs from my own. I would be most satisfied if there was someone who agrees with the current camps that are around and run by Christians, but would have a big problem with other groups running camps to convert people to something other than Christian. If someone in that position was able to explain why they felt that way, I would be very very satisfied.

The other thing I hope to do with this thread, is to get people who like thinking about topics such as religion, to think about this issue and where they stand. By bringing up various situations and viewpoints, you can help other people who want to examine their beliefs to do so.

Is that bad?




I can guarantee you there's anti-christian camps/reeducation centers in other parts of the world, the middle-east definately. The thought of an anti-christian camp here outrages people because, well, america is a christian nation. Try opening one in the middle east, you'll get praise, and all will be well. Then try to open an anti-muslim reeducation center and watch your family be eaten alive.

Based on the contents of your posts that i've read in the past, I understand that for some reason you are extremely anti-religion. Whatever, you can believe what you want, and so can everyone else. However, the end fact that is irrefutable is that America, always has been, and always will be, extremely Christian influenced. The middle east has always been, and always will be, extremely Muslim influenced. The far east has always been, and always will be, extremely Buddhist influenced.

I never said there weren't such camps in other places. I'm simply wondering, because America is a "Christian Nation" and a "free" nation, how people would feel about this. Is it anti-Christian and thus bad? Or would it simply be people exercising their rights, and thus acceptable? If it's bad because it's anti-Christian, what defines things that are Ok to change in people and what aren't Ok?

There are a lot of questions to this topic that I am interested in.

Also, I'm not so sure I disagree with the rest. If you look at recent studies (http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html), you will find that there are certainly parts of the world that aren't nearly as religious as you would think. That study estimates that Japan is 64 - 65% agnostic or atheist. Briton is 31 - 44% agnostic or atheist. Canada is 19 - 30%. Even Israel is 15 - 37%.

I don't have a source, but I'd imagine that many of those numbers are generally a lot higher now than they were 30 years ago.

I'm not saying the world is turning into atheists, since that is far from the case. As you mention, the middle east is mostly Muslim, and will likely stay that way. Over there, they aren't exactly given a freedom of religion and aren't exposed to other viewpoints in a very objective way. As long as that doesn't change, I don't see the religion changing there either.

There are other places like that, particularly where the dominant religion is one in which familys typically have many children. Since children have a very high chance of taking on the same religion as their parents, those religions will be around a long time simply due to gigantic population growth.

But again, so what if the religion is dominant?

America was built on the freedom of religion wasn't it? Does that mean freedom to pick any religion? Freedom to pick any Christian based religion? Or freedom to decide if you want to even have a religion?

What does America being Christian based have to do with this? Are you implying that it shouldn't be allowed or isn't acceptable because of that? If you are, I would consider that very un-American.

[Weston-work]

and what exactly do you hope to gain from this particular topic?

Yet another thread to express hate-filled anti-Christian views and to try to pick fights over each and every little thing that Christians say or do. :rolleyes: You don't see me, or anyone else here, starting anti-atheist threads or otherwise going out of my way to spread a negativity or disrespect towards atheism, but yet the atheists have some deeply insecure need to repeatedly and shamelessly trash on religion and get some sort of pleasure out of offending other people's deepest beliefs. I think it's very sad and disappointing when people resort to such tactics, no matter which side of the fence they are on.

And I'm still waiting for the day that an atheist actually says something positive and encouraging to promote atheism, without having to resort to insulting and intentionally disrespecting Christians...


I can guarantee you there's anti-christian camps/reeducation centers in other parts of the world, the middle-east definately. The thought of an anti-christian camp here outrages people because, well, america is a christian nation. Try opening one in the middle east, you'll get praise, and all will be well. Then try to open an anti-muslim reeducation center and watch your family be eaten alive.

He'd get eaten alive over there too... they take religion far more seriously than us Americans, and they don't put up with people intentionally disrespecting it for their own sick pleasure. They believe in the same God as Christians and Jews, and they believe in Jesus too, but have some different views on certain things and some additional beliefs on top of it.


Anyway, no good will come from this thread, so I'm done with it.

[Street_Kings]

I hope to gain the same thing I always hope to gain posting these threads. That is to have a better understanding of someone's viewpoint that differs from my own. I would be most satisfied if there was someone who agrees with the current camps that are around and run by Christians, but would have a big problem with other groups running camps to convert people to something other than Christian. If someone in that position was able to explain why they felt that way, I would be very very satisfied.

The other thing I hope to do with this thread, is to get people who like thinking about topics such as religion, to think about this issue and where they stand. By bringing up various situations and viewpoints, you can help other people who want to examine their beliefs to do so.

Is that bad?

I never said there weren't such camps in other places. I'm simply wondering, because America is a "Christian Nation" and a "free" nation, how people would feel about this. Is it anti-Christian and thus bad? Or would it simply be people exercising their rights, and thus acceptable? If it's bad because it's anti-Christian, what defines things that are Ok to change in people and what aren't Ok?

There are a lot of questions to this topic that I am interested in.

Also, I'm not so sure I disagree with the rest. If you look at recent studies (http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html), you will find that there are certainly parts of the world that aren't nearly as religious as you would think. That study estimates that Japan is 64 - 65% agnostic or atheist. Briton is 31 - 44% agnostic or atheist. Canada is 19 - 30%. Even Israel is 15 - 37%.

I don't have a source, but I'd imagine that many of those numbers are generally a lot higher now than they were 30 years ago.

I'm not saying the world is turning into atheists, since that is far from the case. As you mention, the middle east is mostly Muslim, and will likely stay that way. Over there, they aren't exactly given a freedom of religion and aren't exposed to other viewpoints in a very objective way. As long as that doesn't change, I don't see the religion changing there either.

There are other places like that, particularly where the dominant religion is one in which familys typically have many children. Since children have a very high chance of taking on the same religion as their parents, those religions will be around a long time simply due to gigantic population growth.

But again, so what if the religion is dominant?

America was built on the freedom of religion wasn't it? Does that mean freedom to pick any religion? Freedom to pick any Christian based religion? Or freedom to decide if you want to even [i]have[/] a religion?

What does America being Christian based have to do with this? Are you implying that it shouldn't be allowed or isn't acceptable because of that? If you are, I would consider that very un-American.

I don't know if I trust that site's statistics.
For instance:
Top 50 Countries With Highest Proportion of Atheists / Agnostics
...
Vietnam: 81%

Top 10 Countries with the Highest Proportion of Buddhists
...
Vietnam: 55%

Granted there's bound to be some change, some inaccuracies, but holy hell, 81% atheist/agnostic? Not only am I Vietnamese and can attest to the fact that not 8 out of every 10 of my people are atheistic/agnostic, but I find it slightly hard to believe that a asian, extremely superstitious, third world country leads the world in atheism.

America was formed as a free religious nation. However, it's not 100% true. look at our money, our national anthem, etc. The notions of catholicism are there, but the ideals to stand true as It does allow you to worship what you want and give you a protection of that right. Thats why we put up with fucking psychopaths like tom cruise and his sci-fi beliefs. If it were not, you, as an athiest/agnostic/whatever, would not be free to express your opinion as we are now.

I'm roman catholic. You're Atheist. Some Jehova's Witnesses came to my door a few days ago. My fiancee's family is Buddhist. Tom Cruise is a scientologist. In high school, some geeky goth kids claimed to be satanic. In college, some weird hippy chick claimed to be wiccan. None of us were arrested, "re educated", executed, whatever. I absolutely see america as a place of free religious choice.

Now, these camps you talk of, all i've heard mentioned was homosexuality. Homosexuality is NOT a religion, it is a sexual preference. What camps are you talking about? A religious conversion camp in the united states, where you cannot force someone to go anywhere, doesn't really make sense to me? Would the person who is attending the "camp" be seeking religion? If that's what you're talking about, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If i'm seeking islam, there are support groups and whatnot that would teach me that.

[DrJones]

Yet another thread to express hate-filled anti-Christian views and to try to pick fights over each and every little thing that Christians say or do. :rolleyes: You don't see me, or anyone else here, starting anti-atheist threads or otherwise going out of my way to spread a negativity or disrespect towards atheism, but yet the atheists have some deeply insecure need to repeatedly and shamelessly trash on religion and get some sort of pleasure out of offending other people's deepest beliefs. I think it's very sad and disappointing when people resort to such tactics, no matter which side of the fence they are on.

And I'm still waiting for the day that an atheist actually says something positive and encouraging to promote atheism, without having to resort to insulting and intentionally disrespecting Christians...


Again, no one is forcing anyone to participate in this thread. Just because it's on the forum, doesn't mean you have to reply to it. If you aren't the kind of person who likes to discuss and challenge your beliefs, then you are more than welcome to stay away from these threads.

These threads are for people who like to think about what they believe in. For people who like to question their beliefs. People who realize that by doing so, they can only strengthen their beliefs, or change them for something they come to believe more.

This thread isn't meant to be hate-filled at all. As I said (if you read it) I simply used the title and first post as a way of drawing attention to the topic. Are you so insecure in your beliefs that the simple fictional reference to a program that pulls people away from Christianity is an '"insulting and intentionally disrespecting" thing? Atheists aren't trashing other religions, they are trying to give theirs some credibility. It only seems that way because Christians more or less own all the ground, in order for atheists to get any kind of recognition as a respectable group, they have to try and gain some of that ground back.

Homosexuality is bad because the bible says it's bad. If atheists want to say otherwise, they can't do so without referencing why they disagree with the bible's stance on it. That's the only way to have somewhat of an intelligent debate on the subject. Otherwise, it goes like this:

A: "Homosexuality is bad because the bible says so"
B: "I think homosexuality is Ok."
A: "But it's not, because the bible says so"
B: "But it is, because I think so"

and it just goes on and on like that, with neither side able to do anything. That is a far less interesting and less productive way of discussing the matter.

Saying Atheists always attack Christians is (IMO) like saying the Slaves were always Attacking the slave owners. The reason it may seem that Atheists are always on the offensive, is only because you have accepted the Christian way as the way. Which is also, coincidentally, what a large portion of America does. Being able to express a different viewpoint isn't something that should be considered offensive or wrong. It's one of the founding principals that this "christian" country was based on.

[DrJones]

I don't know if I trust that site's statistics.
For instance:
Top 50 Countries With Highest Proportion of Atheists / Agnostics
...
Vietnam: 81%

Top 10 Countries with the Highest Proportion of Buddhists
...
Vietnam: 55%

Granted there's bound to be some change, some inaccuracies, but holy hell, 81% atheist/agnostic? Not only am I Vietnamese and can attest to the fact that not 8 out of every 10 of my people are atheistic/agnostic, but I find it slightly hard to believe that a asian, extremely superstitious, third world country leads the world in atheism.

I guess that it should be clarified, that the link I posted is looking at:

"Below is a list of the top fifty countries containing the largest measured percentage of people who identify as atheist, agnostic, or non-believer in God. These figures do not necessarily represent the number of people who are identify themselves as "atheists." For example, in Estonia in 2004, 49% of people surveyed said they did not believe in God. At the same time, only 11% of people in the country identified themselves as atheists."

There are plenty of people who may be very spiritual, but don't necessarily believe in a "God" in the traditional sense, who are counted in this study. Beliefs are a hard to classify thing since even within the same religion people define things differently.



America was formed as a free religious nation. However, it's not 100% true. look at our money, our national anthem, etc. The notions of catholicism are there, but the ideals to stand true as It does allow you to worship what you want and give you a protection of that right. Thats why we put up with fucking psychopaths like tom cruise and his sci-fi beliefs. If it were not, you, as an athiest/agnostic/whatever, would not be free to express your opinion as we are now.

I'm roman catholic. You're Atheist. Some Jehova's Witnesses came to my door a few days ago. My fiancee's family is Buddhist. Tom Cruise is a scientologist. In high school, some geeky goth kids claimed to be satanic. In college, some weird hippy chick claimed to be wiccan. None of us were arrested, "re educated", executed, whatever. I absolutely see america as a place of free religious choice.

I don't think many people would argue with you there. People are able to practice their religion here. That isn't a problem. For instance, I bet there are a lot of Muslims here who have much more freedom than those who live in many Muslim countries.

The issue that is debated, is that the atheist, and the jehova's witness, and the buddhist and the scientologist, and the satanic and the wiccan will have to adhere by laws and rules placed by the government which have almost no support other than "that's what the bible says." Thus, even though they can practice their religion, they are still having the beliefs of Christians placed upon them. IMO, if the main point for why something should or shouldn't be in the lawbooks is an issue that is religious at it's core (like homosexuality) then it shouldn't be on the books. Yet, because there are so many Christians in the US and in the government, that is the way it works. I'm obviously not saying to not have any laws that are found in the bible in some way, just that there needs to be more justification for them. Like yes, the bible says not to murder and steel, but you can make a very good case for why you shouldn't murder and steel without referencing scripture.



Now, these camps you talk of, all i've heard mentioned was homosexuality. Homosexuality is NOT a religion, it is a sexual preference. What camps are you talking about? A religious conversion camp in the united states, where you cannot force someone to go anywhere, doesn't really make sense to me? Would the person who is attending the "camp" be seeking religion? If that's what you're talking about, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. If i'm seeking islam, there are support groups and whatnot that would teach me that.

There are all kinds of camps that aim to 'fix' something. Camps for fat kids, camps for lazy kids, camps for troublemakers.

The fictional situation that I brought up wasn't a camp that people are forced to go to that converts them. It was just the idea of such a camp, where people who might of been raised Christian but no longer wanted to be, could go and get some help with that. In that way, I think it's very similar to the anti-gay camps.

I'm simply guessing, that the simple suggestion of such a place existing would offend people (as it does seem to). Which I think is bad, because it contradicts what we consider to be American.

[HONDA GHANDI]

I think your view on Christianity and Christians may be slightly warped. Not all (actually very few) Christians are judgemental to the point of coming off as an extremist. I feel that homosexuality is wrong and un-natural but I dont go condemning all my gay friends to hell for it. I accept them for who they are, pray for them and offer as much guidance I can when asked for it. As a struggling Christian I cannot offer condemnation and judgment because I too
will be judged some day. In our church this is the norm, acceptance without judgement. Our "camps" are for fellowship, prayer and to enjoy one another's company in the outdoor setting (Creation if you will). Of all the camps I went to as a kid I never felt that they were teaching intolerance, or that the world needed to be fixed, and we were the ones to do it.

In fact the only camp that I went to that I distinctly remember being uncomfortable with the message was a Mormon recruiting weekend camp (dont ask). There the message was simple, "If youre not one of us, you will burn in the lakes of hell forever."

And in the true spirit of open dialog in this forum please dont post in this thread or "Serious Corner" if it isnt a serious question or topic. I know DrJones well enough to know that this isnt a thread to start shit or a fight. If it were I assure you it would have been locked already.

[Dave_L]

Anyone else find it interesting that as the % of atheist rises, the condition of our world deminishes. Each generation loses a little bit of religion and the meaning of it.

Like Tobi said, I grew up in a christian home and went to numberous camps. All of them only had great memories because you get fellowship with other christians. It's especially nice at a young age when you seem to be the odd one out for believing in God. They never preached about casting people away or condemning them. It was about reaching out and making the knowledge available for people who wanted it. I even brought some non-christian friends a couple times and they always had fun too.

[DrJones]

I think your view on Christianity and Christians may be slightly warped. Not all (actually very few) Christians are judgemental to the point of coming off as an extremist. I feel that homosexuality is wrong and un-natural but I dont go condemning all my gay friends to hell for it. I accept them for who they are, pray for them and offer as much guidance I can when asked for it. As a struggling Christian I cannot offer condemnation and judgment because I too
will be judged some day. In our church this is the norm, acceptance without judgement. Our "camps" are for fellowship, prayer and to enjoy one another's company in the outdoor setting (Creation if you will). Of all the camps I went to as a kid I never felt that they were teaching intolerance, or that the world needed to be fixed, and we were the ones to do it.

In fact the only camp that I went to that I distinctly remember being uncomfortable with the message was a Mormon recruiting weekend camp (dont ask). There the message was simple, "If youre not one of us, you will burn in the lakes of hell forever."

And in the true spirit of open dialog in this forum please dont post in this thread or "Serious Corner" if it isnt a serious question or topic. I know DrJones well enough to know that this isnt a thread to start shit or a fight. If it were I assure you it would have been locked already.

This is the type of post that makes these threads worth starting.

I do agree, that often my view of Christians gets a little off base. I'm pretty sure that the reason for that is that the typical way I learn about what Christians think, is from the media, politics, books, etc. However, it's true that most the people that fall into those categories aren't really 'typical.' ie lots of politicians would fall into the category of the 'religious right' and in our media, things make the news because they are a-typical (ie protesting at a soldier's funeral). I guess I don't really hear the views of every-day Christians, because for the most part, they are just people and don't really do anything 'extreme' enough to be noticed in this fashion.

I think it's good to be reminded of this from time to time.

[Seved]

If I want to goto an Anti-christian class, all I have to do is goto my Anthropology class.

[myshtern]

I'd like to bring in a different angle to this thread.

I think 95% of the things that people like about Christianity is found in the old testament and 95% of the things people hate about Christianity is found in the new testament. That 5% is Mr. Jesus.

Judaism is the most accepting religion on Earth but never tries to convert anyone. In fact, most people are pushed away from converting unless they talk to reform Jews.

Look into it folks

[DrJones]

I was reading some stuff by my second favorite author (Brandon Sanderson (http://www.BrandonSanderson.com)), and came across this little essay he put up on his site. It reminded me of what Tobi said. I think a lot of people like myself can gain a little bit of insight by reading it.


We haven't had a really good rant here on the Bsblog for a while, so I thought I'd share something I've been thinking about lately. It's not my intent to offend anyone, but I have some things to say about religion--particularly Christianity. If these are sensitive topics to you, please don't let yourself take my comments TOO seriously. I know I have a tenancy to ramble at times, and I'm not sure if I'll even get my thoughts down in a coherent manner. But, here goes. What the heck. It's Sunday--what else am I gonna blather about?

I consider myself a Christian. I am a believer in organized religion, and belong to one myself. However, I get a little annoyed at something within the culture of religion in our country. (And, it's probably not one of the things you're thinking about.)

It's this: Many people in many churches seem to have a lot to say on what a Christian should or shouldn't do. You can find all sorts of rants about what kinds of practices a "Good" Christian should participate in. These include everything from celebrating April Fools to reading Harry Potter.

I find it a little annoying, and even disturbing, the way we throw around the word Christian. I've studied the Bible. I can find only a few things that REALLY stand out as being Christian. (Meaning, they relate directly to things Christ taught.)

What is it to be Christian? From what I've read, it means to be loving, patient, and non-hypocritical. If you do something wrong, repent and try to do better. Those things are the soul of it. Now, there are a lot of other things churches teach. My own church teaches much more than these things, and that's fine. However, I'd rather we didn't classify these things as "Christian."

I'm a Mormon. Mormons have a prohibition against drinking alcohol. We think it came from God. So, is it un-Christian to drink alcohol? No. Not in my opinion. This doesn't relate to the soul of Christ's teachings. So, while it's hard to be a good Latter-Day Saint if you drink alcohol, I don't think it's hard to be a good Christian if you do.

Churches are very free with their terminology. Some say it's not Christian to support the UN (which seems silly to me). Others say it's not Christian to support abortion. (I happen to agree that abortion is wrong.) Yet, again, I don't think either is a place where it's right to use the word "Christian."

It dilutes the meaning. I'm perfectly all right with people teaching that abortion--or even supporting the UN--is wrong. I just suggest leaving Christ's name out of it. If you want to teach Christianity, teach the REAL stuff. The hardcore Christian doctrine.

It's time for us to admit that the term "Christian" refers to far many more people than we might want it to. Anyone who considers themselves a disciple of Christ is, by definition, a Christian. As Pemberly says, "It's a mindset, not a checklist."

So, let's stop telling each other what good Christians do, and accept that someone can still be a follower of His--and follow His teachings--without believing like we do.

(Note. This isn't an argument for "All churches are true". I happen to believe my own Church is right, and will be happy to discuss why at length. However, I can't tell someone that because they're not a member of my faith, they aren't a Christian. They're Christian. They're just not Mormon.)

Does that make any kind of sense at all?

[Aracheon]

Curing Christians...


Can't you just put them into a kiln, like you would a clay jar? :D