Custom Intercooler Piping

[Ferret]

What do you people do when you have to build a custom setup? Do you just use a bunch of silicone couplings and pipes, or do you have someone custom fab all that shit up for you? My Volvo has one, obviously, but the car runs pretty hot since the HUGE intercooler is in front of the radiator. I'm giving serious consideration to mounting a front mount up under the bumper, thus letting air directly to the radiator with most likely no difference in throttle response. This would also let air to the oil cooler, and give me room to mount up a transmission cooler behind the grill if I wanted to be ridiculous.

Anyway: is this shit expensive?

Also: See the plastic slats in the black bumper? I don't think it'd look too horrible if I cram it up in thurr. Some people say, "NO KEEP THE SLEEPER LOOK", but function > form IMO :cheers:

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e387/Shanerak/Volvo%20940/IMG_0023.jpg

[boostedEG]

depends on who you have make it, what kind of material you use, and what kind of welding you have done.

i try to eliminate as many silicone couplers as possible because the fewer you have, the less problems you have with them blowing off. if your not running over 10 psi you wont have that much of a problem though.

if you go to an exhaust shop they can press bend piping for a couple hundred $$$. or if you can weld you can buy mandrel u-bends and do it all yourself for about the same price, maybe less.
if you have some fancy aluminum, tig welded, pipes made it could easily cost you over $1k.

but heres a question... in the pic i cant tell if you already have an aftermarket FMIC or stock. if its stock then your issues with it running hot are not caused by the IC blocking the radiator. first make sure the FMIC/radiator fins aren't blocked/clogged with bugs and dirt. and make sure your fans are working properly.

[eg_project]

I doubt it would cost that much for crush bends. I paid like $50 for mandrel piping shipped. But yeah, like boostedEG said, that shouldn't be a problem, especially since it is stock...right?

[boostedEG]

[QUOTE=eg_project;677326]I doubt it would cost that much for crush bends. IQUOTE]

i've heard that exhaust pro's will do it for around $200-300 on a civic, and i know the company i work for would probably want $400+. it because its actually kinda hard and time consuming to measure everything out perfectly so that you can bend it all in as few pieces as possible.

but yeah, if you can weld it yourself you can just buy some mild steel mandrel bent u-bends and save some money.

[fusionsport]

We do intercooler piping, and if you want a nice setup we will be glad to help you out. A few things to be aware of:

NEVER EVER use plain steel for intercooler pipes. The hot/cold cycle of compressing the air leads to constant condensation, which leads to rust, whcih ends up in your motor. I dont care how many people have done it before and lived, I wouldnt want that crap anywhere near my motor.

NEVER use more couplers than you absolutely need. Each and every one is a potential boost leak and failure point.

If you want a high-quality set of pipes made to fit your car, feel free to give us a call at 720-212-5838. There are pictures of my work on my myspace-.

[transaxion]

it cost me 40 bucks to make mine...I bought the bends off ubendman on ebay, measured, marked, cut, and welded them myself. they aren't the prettiest but they get the job done.

[Special Ed GT]

I agree w/ Fusionsport, SS and as few couplers as possible.

It is pretty straightforward to make your own if you get the bends and can weld. It does take time though. If you need any mandrel bends, I have an in-house mandrel bender and can supply you w/ bends.

Hank

[Fabricator]

I can fab it out of aluminum or Stainless or mild. I like aluminum Its light, my welds are beautifull anyone who's seen my fabrication knows who i am, And realativly cheap parts cost is anywhere from 220-300 for honda like setup plus labor. PM me

[Kinematics]

Buy some premade bends off Ebay, mock it up yourself..measure the cuts and where they need to be welded, and take it to a shop and make marks on the pipes to show how they should be assembled, it's cheap.

[pfiperformance]

Its all about the aluminum.... We started building aluminum boost pipes with v-band clamps, oh ya!!!! Get rid of the need for cuplers all together. We do use one cupler so when the motor shifts it does crack the piping.

[sirtef9]

Its all about the aluminum.... We started building aluminum boost pipes with v-band clamps, oh ya!!!! Get rid of the need for cuplers all together. We do use one cupler so when the motor shifts it does crack the piping.
How's those awsome b16 motor mount adapters sellin these days?;NutKick;

[Special Ed GT]

Its all about the aluminum.... We started building aluminum boost pipes with v-band clamps, oh ya!!!! Get rid of the need for cuplers all together. We do use one cupler so when the motor shifts it does crack the piping.

Aluminum V-bands? I didn't even know they made those! BTW I need to get up there one of these days to visit you guys.

Hank

[fusionsport]

For the ultimate use Wiggins clamps- no leak and cannot come loose ever. V-bands are nice, but you risk cracking pipes or breaking intake manifolds.

Aluminum sucks as a charge pipe material due to heat transfer.

[Fabricator]

Sucks for charge pipe material i think NOT....Aluminum is a heat sink yes but just as fast as it may heat soak it cools lol. Get stainless hot and it will retain the heat for a longer period of time than aluminum. Its all find and dandy when your moving air over the car, but think about stop n go? Lite to lite. Aluminum is the way to go. Oh did i mention Its Lighter. The only way to really defeat heat transfer is composite materials

[fusionsport]

Wow- I can tell where you got your engineering degree from. Have you ever actually thought about what we are trying to accomplish with charge pipes?

Well first off think back to when you weld on these materials(assuming you actually do weld)- on a piece of aluminum pretty much the entire piece will be hot. This is bad in a car, because no matter how you route them they will at some point be pretty close to heat. Heat TRANSFER -not heat sink, I dont know why exactly you used that term, its not correct- is our problem here, as the pipes will transfer heat thier entire length, which is bad for us once we have cooled the air in the intercooler. Stainless steel on the other hand, does not trnasfer heat nearly as well. In fact when you weld on stainless you can typically pick up the workpiece a few inches away. In fact it has such high heat rejection properties that cookware has to be coated with copper or similar material to ensure even heat transfer. This is desirable for charge pipes in that any heat it does happen to absorb(and stainless doesnt absorb heat particularly well) will not be transfered through the length of the pipes. Also stainless doesnt hold heat particularly longer than alumium in the thickness of the pipes we would be using.

Now, lets all think clearly about this for a moment. We have a hot compressor discharging hot air into a set of pipes- the first example is aluminum, The hot compressor heats the charge pipe by proximity and that pipe transfers the heat throughout its length. The hot air also transfers heat into the alloy pipes, and if the pipes were cool to start with this might help in cooling the charge air, however since they are already heated little effect will be noted. The hot air reaches the intercooler, and is cooled to a reasonable level and exits into the "cold side". However, once again we have heat transfer from the engine bay and intercooler itslef, and since aluminum accepts heat so readily, it absorbs and distributes it once again, which serves to transfer some of that heat to the air we just cooled. This decreases the efficiency of the entire system.
Now lets look into a set of stainless pipes. We have the same heat transfer from compressor to the charge pipes, but the stainless will not transfer the heat thoughout. The charge air then has a little less heat when it reaches the intercooler. Exiting the intercooler, the stainless has once again localized the heat from the intercooler and the charge aire is cooler through the pipes to the TB. All in all our charge pipes are more efficient and therefore, so is our engine.

Unless you are running a stripped out professional race car I wouldnt worry too much about the weight difference between aluminum and SS pipes, and would definitely take the efficiency of the SS and lose the power seats, full interior, etc before I gave it up to save a cpl of pounds.

On and lets not forget aluminums other big issue- if you use t-bolt clamps and tighten them to keep the pipes from slipping the aluminum tubing will crush out and your pipes will continue to slip off. Its even worse if the pipes are hot as hell(which is normal for alloy pipes) and you tighten them like you mean it, because the alloy then is in a softer state and shinks even more easily under the clamping force.

But hey- if you really like using that alloy go right ahead, but I will take every advantage I can get.

[Erron S.]

Good post fusion.

Erron S.

[pfiperformance]

This is one heated discussion we got here. We like to use whatever the customer wants, now we push alot of aluminum for the charge pipes and alot of SS for downpipes and exhaust. The aluminum looks awesome when its done and polished, cant beat the look if thats what your going for.

Special Ed GT get a hold of us, we need to see if we can get some bending done on that machine of yours??!!!?

[Fabricator]

Wow- I can tell where you got your engineering degree from. Have you ever actually thought about what we are trying to accomplish with charge pipes?

Well first off think back to when you weld on these materials(assuming you actually do weld)- on a piece of aluminum pretty much the entire piece will be hot. This is bad in a car, because no matter how you route them they will at some point be pretty close to heat. Heat TRANSFER -not heat sink, I dont know why exactly you used that term, its not correct- is our problem here, as the pipes will transfer heat thier entire length, which is bad for us once we have cooled the air in the intercooler. Stainless steel on the other hand, does not trnasfer heat nearly as well. In fact when you weld on stainless you can typically pick up the workpiece a few inches away. In fact it has such high heat rejection properties that cookware has to be coated with copper or similar material to ensure even heat transfer. This is desirable for charge pipes in that any heat it does happen to absorb(and stainless doesnt absorb heat particularly well) will not be transfered through the length of the pipes. Also stainless doesnt hold heat particularly longer than alumium in the thickness of the pipes we would be using.

Now, lets all think clearly about this for a moment. We have a hot compressor discharging hot air into a set of pipes- the first example is aluminum, The hot compressor heats the charge pipe by proximity and that pipe transfers the heat throughout its length. The hot air also transfers heat into the alloy pipes, and if the pipes were cool to start with this might help in cooling the charge air, however since they are already heated little effect will be noted. The hot air reaches the intercooler, and is cooled to a reasonable level and exits into the "cold side". However, once again we have heat transfer from the engine bay and intercooler itslef, and since aluminum accepts heat so readily, it absorbs and distributes it once again, which serves to transfer some of that heat to the air we just cooled. This decreases the efficiency of the entire system.
Now lets look into a set of stainless pipes. We have the same heat transfer from compressor to the charge pipes, but the stainless will not transfer the heat thoughout. The charge air then has a little less heat when it reaches the intercooler. Exiting the intercooler, the stainless has once again localized the heat from the intercooler and the charge aire is cooler through the pipes to the TB. All in all our charge pipes are more efficient and therefore, so is our engine.

Unless you are running a stripped out professional race car I wouldnt worry too much about the weight difference between aluminum and SS pipes, and would definitely take the efficiency of the SS and lose the power seats, full interior, etc before I gave it up to save a cpl of pounds.

On and lets not forget aluminums other big issue- if you use t-bolt clamps and tighten them to keep the pipes from slipping the aluminum tubing will crush out and your pipes will continue to slip off. Its even worse if the pipes are hot as hell(which is normal for alloy pipes) and you tighten them like you mean it, because the alloy then is in a softer state and shinks even more easily under the clamping force.

But hey- if you really like using that alloy go right ahead, but I will take every advantage I can get.




Ultimately Its the customers choice what materials he/she wants in their car
I explain the benefit of both materials (SS-Aluminum) because there are advantages to both, color, scratch resistants, weight, the topic @ hand ect
I love doing a set of SS pipes don't get me wrong, I think we can all agree Nothing really compares to the look of a sick ass set of SS pipes with great welds and gas coverage.Golden beads little bit of blue some purple brings a tear to my eye just thinking about it.

Were did you get your engineering degree?

Assuming I do weld :spit: Yes i do. And Assuming that you do, you would know that welding aluminum takes way more heat to weld because of how well it dissipates it thats why when (I) weld (I) switch my machine to AC.
Now taking that into consideration thats why you don't go picking up your part/piece after your done especially when it doesn't change color when its hot.

Aluminum is a heat Sink (meaning it absorbs heat) transfers, whatever. On a molecular level steel is more dense than aluminum, so it will in fact retain heat for a longer period of time. Get two pipes one SS and one aluminum and stick them in your oven (assuming you do have one) crank er up to about 350 for 45-60min pull them out and see which cools first.

The wall thickness of pipes we typically see in this business is usually around .057in -1.45mm for aluminum and a little thicker for stainless

Now then....On the hot side whether the heat "transfers" to the pipe doesn't matter because its hot. On the Cold side your going to see the pipe soak whether its stainless or aluminum, just because of under hood temps/radiant heat unless your moving a high volume of cold air through it.

"Unless you are running a stripped out professional race car I wouldnt worry too much about the weight difference between aluminum and SS pipes, and would definitely take the efficiency of the SS and lose the power seats, full interior, etc before I gave it up to save a cpl of pounds." ??????????:confused:

There's a reason OEM use aluminum for I/C piping.
There's a reason after market kits like Greddy,HKS,Apex,Perrin,Blitz,(just to name a few) use aluminum


"On and lets not forget aluminums other big issue- if you use t-bolt clamps and tighten them to keep the pipes from slipping the aluminum tubing will crush out and your pipes will continue to slip off. Its even worse if the pipes are hot as hell(which is normal for alloy pipes) and you tighten them like you mean it, because the alloy then is in a softer state and shinks even more easily under the clamping force."

Wow... you must be real strong :) What are you using an impact? If the pipes are beaded on the ends like the ones i make they dont crush(because the bead adds strength) nor blow off. If you need to tighten them that tight because of a boost issue then thats when i would either go with silicone coupler and a lock bar(cheaper) v band for rigid sections or if you have the money, Wiggins.

"But hey- if you really like using that alloy go right ahead, but I will take every advantage I can get."


I will continue using this "alloy", But ultimately whatever my customer wants they get......Quality

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/O4silver/scottsupdatedpics038.jpg
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[ComputerJLT]

I like how much bitching is in this thread... I've seen intercooler piping on volvo's before and its not any more complicated than a honda.

The op just wants to know how to make charge piping.. it's not rocket sciennce. The cheapest and easiest route is to get 2 or three 2.5" or 2.25" mild steel aluminumized u bends from summit or jegs for ~ $15 each and make that work. Buy yourself a chop saw and make a friend with a MIG welder and you can have some charge pipes... no need to pay anyone money besides you'll get the satisfaction of doing it yourself. It's not rocket science.

Then for couplers just get one of the chinese t-bolt kits off ebay that come with 3-4 couplers and clamps, thats cheaper than piecing it together yourself and so far everyone who's used them has had fairly good luck w/ them. Another way to go is get some silicoln hose from napa and find the hose clamps either way could be more expensive depending on who you know and how much shopping around you do.

Once you have a basic layout you can weld a few joints then use couplers on the rest. It's really not that hard to eyeball it if you have any common sense, if eg_project can do it ANYONE can. IF you make a friend with a mig you can weld the joints or have him/her do it and then weld a lot of nipples on the edges of the pipe that get couplers. Beats finding a bead roller and works well enough. My charge pipes built the same way have held on 20+ psi spikes out of some big turbo's.

So basically what you need to do is get an idea of routing, buy the u bends and a chop saw, fab away then have a friend with a welder do the rest. Shouldn't take more than a day and i KNOW there are guys around denver that would help with the welding, if i was still there i'd do it.


Now with that said if you want to make it out of aluminum or stainless go ahead though it's not really worth the extra, and dont worry about rust; the aluminumized pipe won't rust, you may have a tiny bit around the weld joints but honestly it wont cause some vortex in space and colapse the universe.
Eventually on my EF i'm going to redo my charge piping with aluminum but only because its slighty lighter and I have an a/c tig now and I just want to :) I'll probably even fab a fat ass 4" cat back exhaust out of Al

[Special Ed GT]

Special Ed GT get a hold of us, we need to see if we can get some bending done on that machine of yours??!!!?


Right on, I'll call you this week.

[Fabricator]

Lol yeah it did get alittle out of hand lol:)

[Ferret]

Well that got a little ridiculous, but now I know two to PM about this stuff when I move back to the area. Pretty sure I don't be fuckin with my IC until I'm bored with everything else I'm buying for the car. Apparently losing the stock intercooler is like night and day though, so I'm looking forward to doing this :cheers:

Thanks guys.