honda guys: s/c vs Turbo

[b18cya-T]

i've noticed that quite a few guys here have/had supercharged SI's. what factors made you decide to go with a turbo over a s/c.

I've got a 94 GSR which i plan on turbocharging. but i just want to know why you decided on a s/c

[Brian]

It came down to simplicity for me and cash. I didn't have the cash to buy a 3 k turbo then spend another 5k to allow the engine to handle the stress while being reliable. I had the SC for about 3 years with no reliability issues. The car never stranded me and never had any overheating issues. If I had the cash to spend I would have gone turbo for the added power, but it was too much on a new car that I used as a daily driver.

[TedR719]

A turbo built up will get real expensive if you get boost happy, also the new JRSC kit's are near $3000 now brand new. I'd personaly love to strap on a turbo but too much money to dump in my car at this time. The only main drawback on the JRSC is no intercooler but then you can always go Vortech :D So many desicions, just depends how deep pockets are, or in most cases aren't.

[Brian]

Originally posted by futuresi
So many desicions, just depends how deep pockets are, or in most cases aren't.

I think that about sums it up

[V8SpankR]

Plus the SC'd Hondas have yet to blow a motor. :)

[2000SiVTEC]

yup, I went with it because it had good power and everyone saw how rock solid Brians car was all that time. In the time I had my S/C it never gave me a single problem and we all drove our cars hard......

[BluByU]

I went with turbo because I didn't want to be a SC'd Si fucker that is always a dick. No really, I picked it for the power and the potential. With only pushing 6psi I pull Hector and he's pushing 10psi on a JRSC. Once my intercooler comes in I'll be pushing cold boost.

[newt2]

I chose it becuase the powerband is much more even than a turbo. I hate lag.

Sure you can get small turbos that spool up fast, like T25 but they run out of steam at about 5500rpm and a Honda motor os just getting going at that point. A blower OTOH makes the same torque at 2000 that it does at 8500.

It's a tradeoff for driveability and autox/road course driving vs. more power and faster 1/4 miles.

[B16crxTurbo]

I turbo'd my car about 2 1/2 years ago, and have been loving it ever since. I agree with what has been said already, turbo's do cost more, but they have higher capabilities. There are certain issues that need to bo looked at for daily driver reliability. Turbo setups can overheat the engine. Other than that, as long as the boost level is set to what your engine can handle, you shouldn't have any problems.

[Bryson]

If you like to make your own stuff, a custom made turbo setup will more then satisfy....

Plus there are so many parts that work just as good as the "flashy" kinds but work as well for 1/2 the price.

Just a matter of looking around, finding deals, and having fun.

:)

[Jai SI]

Hmm since somebody mentioned something about reliable amounts of boost, is it possible to drive around with no boost at all if you have a boost controller or something? I was going to build my turbo hopefully before next summer and I most definitely need it to be reliable as it is my only daily driver.

[b18cya-T]

usually you'll only have full boost at WOT. so when your just driving normally, boost can be set for low or none

[2002jettavr6]

I like the turbo better because it free power where s/c takes power to make power

[b18cya-T]

i think thats why turbos work so well on small engines, & s/c's rule on v8's. & i think s/c's spin themselves out of usefulness when you hit a certain RPM, so they're useless on a high revving motor.

[exciv2000]

Originally posted by b18cya
so they're useless on a high revving motor.

That's your opinion. If they are useless, tell that to the thousands of people who have successfully ran and tuned SC's on their high revving small honda engines and made power with them. They work great upto about 11,000 engine RPM. I have yet to see a honda go that high. Also, this is only limited to Roots/Eaton/Magnuson blowers. Centrifugal chargers spin somewhere around 140,000 RPM I think for the Vortech chargers, and are really peaky like turbos.

[b18cya-T]

ok, i guess im inaccurate on that one...

[Bryson]

You can not set a boost controler to give you "NO" boost...

you can set the controller to boost as low as the tension in the actuators spring....

If you want NO boost, I would just never install the turbo setup:p

Now you could always get the tiny little wastegate spring (usually 4psi)...set your controller for that on the street, and then increase to what ever PSI forracing.

I would not reccomend taking off the wastegate actuator (if internal) for no boost, as it will most likely melt the wastegate flapper valve, as it is seeing a constant flow of hot gases.

[crxrocks]

Look who found another online forum!

Chris

[b18cya-T]

Originally posted by crxrocks
Look who found another online forum!

Chris


uh, ok


welcome i guess

[crxrocks]

uh... Sorry, that should have been directed toward Bryson. We frequent many of the same online forums. ;RoCkOn;


Chris

[w00dr0w]

Originally posted by exciv2000


They work great upto about 11,000 engine RPM. I have yet to see a honda go that high. .

Speaking of 11,000 RPM, check this out.

http://sgt.ghettoracer.com/images/run.wmv

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=233651&page=1

[Bryson]

HEY!!!

What's up Chris?

This makes 3 forums?

;RoCkOn;

[nolimitsoldier]

Originally posted by BluByU
I went with turbo because I didn't want to be a SC'd Si fucker that is always a dick.

LOL!!:rofl:

When did you go turbo??

[AcuraBro]

Plus the SC'd Hondas have yet to blow a motor.
The S/C'ed Honda's Have yet to break the 13's :) --Sorry guys
NA is bad,mmm kay....
N/A is sweet! I want to build another N/A motor, but funds are Waaay short, I just built the Turbo motor. The only thing that really sucks about them is you really have to run race gas for the high Compression ratio.

Though I've never owned a JRSC (or any other S/C kit availible for Honda motors), I'm not a very big fan. At all. Some may quote me as calling them garbage. Nothing against your cars anyone, but adding a $3000 supercharger then having a very small amount of options after that for more power turns me off. Sure, you get the boost sooner, but 6-10psi is all you're getting. If you're running it off the motor which doesn't have too much torque to spin it, it's just.... just blah.

You have so many options with turbo, and whoever said it was unreliable? If you're going to go fast, you're going to break stuff with these cars. It's simple, they weren't ment to have 400hp.

I just drove my GS-R out to L.A. and back through the desert (it was 101° in Baker, CA at 11:40pm when I went through) 13 hours each way @ 11psi of boost, and the only problems I had were a bad fuel line and a front right bumper lens falling out, both which were completely unrelated to my turbo. Oh, and I built and dropped in the engine in my garage. By myself (with Eujon and Pat). It's unreliable if you put it together wrong, don't know how to drive it, or over-look something in your set-up.

Not to beat a dead horse, but have you ever noticed the amount of factory produced 4cylinder engines w/ turbo vs. factory produced 4cylinder engines w/ a supercharger? Sure, on the latter side, the VW Corrado G60 comes to mind, but... those put out 150fwhp, you can upgrade the boost w/ a smaller pulley, but the big power adder on these motors is a....wait, a turbo kit to replace the S/C. I'm just not a fan. I'm now boosting 14psi. Intercooler piping blowing off sucks, but she's got serious balls now. 2x the boost as I ran the 12.81 with.

Sorry if I pissed anyone off, I have a strong stance on this issue. Prove me wrong, and get a Supercharged Honda into the 13's (here) and I'll completly change my mind. Only if you paid less than it would to get the car into the 13's w/ a Turbo.

[w00dr0w]

Originally posted by AcuraBro

Prove me wrong, and get a Supercharged Honda into the 13's (here) and I'll completly change my mind. Only if you paid less than it would to get the car into the 13's w/ a Turbo.

Son of a..... Now you've got me rethinking my decision to supercharge. :confused:

[exciv2000]

I'm sure my car could be in the 13s with some nitrous and if I completely gut the crap out of it!

BTW, my kit was only $2450.

My next car will be the Evo VII if they make it to the states, so I'm not worried about getting this car into the 13s, but that car definetely will be, probably 12s too.

[newt2]

Sorry if I pissed anyone off, I have a strong stance on this issue. Prove me wrong, and get a Supercharged Honda into the 13's (here) and I'll completly change my mind. Only if you paid less than it would to get the car into the 13's w/ a Turbo.

Superchargers aren't for running 13's in a Honda. If fast ET's are what you want, a turbo is the way to go. JRSC's are more about increased drivability and a moderate power gain, and they do a good job of it.

[Mark_H]

I seem to answer this question alot and I have to back up and support the use of turbo's on Honda's. I probably sound like a broken record but I have owned two turbocharged Honda's. One was a '98 Civic EX, Automatic tranny, 7psi for 20,000 miles, not a single problem or glitch EVER! My second was a '00 Civic Si, 7psi for approx. 20,000 miles as well, not a single glitch or problem EVER! Neither of these cars were tuned, hell my '98 Civic ran the WHOLE time without an inline fuel pump. That was back before I new the advantages of running an FMU with an inline pump. I am currently building a custom turbo kit for my high ass compression Type R with stock bottom end. I have seen the good and the bad when turbocharging Honda's. I have to say anyone that says "all" turbo Honda's need $5000 to build the block, tune etc. is absoulutely ridiculous. It's very simple, make sure you are getting enough fuel, and not knocking, thats IT. Don't overboost, if you run more boost then a stock bottom end and pistons can handle then yes, your going to blow your motor, it really is that simple. I have a good friend that blows motors all the time, he knows good well what stock blocks, pistons and rods can handle but has the time and money top just drop new motors in whenever he pops one.
So the moral of this long boring post is that Turbo Honda's are easy to maintain if your smart and don't run too much boost, and keep the air fuel ratio safe, and don't knock.
Thanks.
M

[w00dr0w]

Originally posted by 01ITR#700
My second was a '00 Civic Si, 7psi for approx. 20,000 miles as well, not a single glitch or problem EVER!

It's my car now, heh. :D

[BluByU]

Originally posted by nolimitsoldier


LOL!!:rofl:

When did you go turbo??

I've had it for about a month now. I absolutley LOVE it! I just met up with Tommy (Eclipse6g72) last night, and we have the same kit.

[AcuraBro]

JRSC's are more about increased drivability

I'm going to be stuborn here and ask how a turbo is less "driveable" than a supercharger....

[exciv2000]

Originally posted by AcuraBro


I'm going to be stuborn here and ask how a turbo is less "driveable" than a supercharger....

Look at it this way, we have a much flatter torque curve, and I also hit full boost at 2000 RPM. Chances are I'd get you off the line unless you were wearing those slicks, but your car would pass me within 200' probably. Also, when you step on the gas after crusing at 4000 RPM in say 4th, its not instant boost, there is a bit of spoolup time with a turbo... step on the gas in an SC and it's instantaneous.

[forum]

yeah, but you can definately feel the turbo :) and i think its plenty drivable after last night, boost rules

[newt2]

I'm going to be stuborn here and ask how a turbo is less "driveable" than a supercharger....

Turbo lag.

If you've built the block and lowered the compression it becomes even less snappy in the low range.

I've heard the arguement that you can properly size a turbo to avoid lag, but that doesn't work real well with a Honda. In order to have full boost at a low rpm you need a real small turbo, something like a T25 that comes on a 2G DSM. The problem is that those turbos fall flat on thier face at about 5500rpm and a Honda motor is just getting going at that point. What you end up with is good low and mid range but a flat top end. That's the main reason people use T3/T4 turbos on a Honda, it's better suited to the high powerband of a VTEC engine.

I'm not saying that a turbo'd car isn't drivable, but there's varying degrees of drivability. A flat torque curve is always better for cruising around town than a car that lags, lags.....BOOM, off like a rocket. Too me personally, that's extremely annoying. I much prefer a linear torque curve that an NA or roots blown car gives (from behind the wheel they both feel exactly the same, with a good roots blower setup the only tip off that it's FI is the whine from the blower).

[SleeperZ]

I don't drive Hondas, but turbo lag is only a factor for me below 2500-3000 rpm. Granted, I usually cruise there and need to downshift before punching it, but it's easy to do if you can anticipate the need for speed! ;RoCkOn; Believe me, punching the gas above 3000 there is no delay. :cop:

[Brian]

I had a supercharged SI for almost 3 years, now I have a small turbo'd GTI. There isn't much lag, but the power was much smoother with the SC. This car can be a pain sometimes if you get going just right and the turbo isn't spooled right away. You feel like you are going to kill it because of the low compression. I think I have a fair comparison here and I would say hands down superchargers are more driveable. With that said will I be trading my turbo car anytime soon.............NO.

[AcuraBro]

Chances are I'd get you off the line unless you were wearing those slicks

Wanna give it a shot? I would never launch at 750rpm. If we did that, then it's possible that you would, but if I'm on DOT tires, then I'd launch at 5500rpm, C'ya. Just like the guy the other night in the red GS-R JRSC that I romped on. He didn't have a prayer.

I can understand that you may want more torque on the bottom end, but here's how I see it. Either you need power or you don't. Power for me is just a downshift away, if I really need it, but I can keep up with traffic just fine even if my IC piping has blown off.

If you're going to have power, much better to have more, sure, it migh tbe cool to step on the gas and feel it right away, but that won't last very long. If you're going thru the gears, you're going to stay above 5000rpm anyway.

[exciv2000]

Originally posted by AcuraBro


Wanna give it a shot?

Yeah, lets do! :D

[Brian]

Originally posted by exciv2000


Yeah, lets do! :D

I honestly don't think you have a chance.... I don't even think my si would have had a chance at that one.

[b18cya-T]

i'd like to see that...just to see what acurabro can do...hehehe

[newt2]

I can understand that you may want more torque on the bottom end, but here's how I see it. Either you need power or you don't. Power for me is just a downshift away, if I really need it, but I can keep up with traffic just fine even if my IC piping has blown off.

If you're going to have power, much better to have more, sure, it migh tbe cool to step on the gas and feel it right away, but that won't last very long. If you're going thru the gears, you're going to stay above 5000rpm anyway.

And coming from a drag/street racer, I can understand that. Take your car autocrossing though and you'll find out how important it is to have snappy acceleration at 1500-2000rpm in 2nd gear. You're there a lot and downshifting to first is not really the best option either, as our trannies lock you out if you're going over 20mph.

Certain setups are better for certain purposes, there is no one "best" setup for everyone.

[w00dr0w]

Originally posted by b18cya
i'd like to see that...just to see what acurabro can do...hehehe

Me too. Let us know when this is going to happen. I'd drive to Denver to check it out. My money's on acurabro.

[1FAST4]

The age old comparison. Centrifugal vs. Positive Displacement. 2 completely different animals. The problem with a centrifugal blower is and always will be lag. I don't want to hear that crap about "I don't have any lag." It's the laws of physics, you will have lag! If you had ever driven a car with an Eaton style blower you'd know. The problem with a positive displacement blower - heat! No big deal at 6 or even 8psi, but it will limit your maximum output. Where as a centrifugal blower can be intercooled much more efficiently, it can be pushed to further limits. However, there is 1 way to effectively intercool a positive displacement blower, allowing you to maintain the driveability yet maximize output far beyond the potential of the blower. NOS.

exciv2000, you of all people should know. I thought you were looking into this like 8 mos. ago.

[jojo]

There is no more lag with a centrifugal than a positive displacement. Perhaps you are thinking about boost threshold?

Also positive displacement compressors do not inherently run any hotter than dynamic compressors. Some of the highest adiabatic efficiencies have been achieved with pd blowers (Lysholm).

[2000SiVTEC]

Originally posted by exciv2000


Yeah, lets do! :D

Dude if you coudl stay ahead of him for 200' I woudl pay y ou. Hell if you could stay in front of me for that long I would pay also......

[Brian]

Originally posted by jojo
Some of the highest adiabatic efficiencies have been achieved with pd blowers (Lysholm).

Yeah, but adiabatic efficiency doesn't mean much in terms of power and performance. It's the thermal efficiency that sucks on a positive displacement blower. The adibatic efficiency is almost 99 percent on an overdriven eaton m62 and approaches 100 percent as speed is increased because the air doesn't have a chance to escape back through the rotors at high speeds. The key to making a powerful car with a positive displacement blower is to size the blower properly for the application. In the case of the SOHC Civic EX's the M45 IMO is too small. At only 6 psi the outlet temps are near what the M62 on the SI puts out at 10 psi.

to sum things up I would bolt up a non intercooled M90 to a SI run 16 psi and be happy all day. At 16 psi the outlet temps are about teh same as an m62 at 6 psi. ....

[1FAST4]

jojo you are right. I should have been more specific. Hope this isn't too confusing. If anyone does not understand any part of this reply, feel free to post questions.

Centrifugal compressor design in turbo applications:

This application will cause lag due to the fact that it relies on spent exhaust gases to "spool up." As opposed to SC's, which are belt driven. Unlike all forms of SC's, including centrifugal SC's, turbos partially rely on engine load and throttle positions as opposed to engine rpms. This compressor design only flows efficiently at high rpms and therefore doesn't have a reliable airflow based on any rpm.

Centrifugal compressor design in SC applications (i.e. Vortech):

This design does not have any inherent "lag" but is inferior to a positive displacement blowers at low to mid ranges. Let me demostrate: An engines airflow needs are linear. At 4,000 rpms WOT your engine requires "A" airflow. At 8,000 rpms your engine requires "2A" airflow. In simple terms if you double your engine speed you can consume twice the air. The amount of boost that a centrifugal compressor produces increases at approx. a square of it's driven speed, which makes it non linear. Thus the airflow of the blower will increase faster than the engines airflow requirements. As a result a centrifugal blower must be set up to reach maximum boost at engine redline, which means that at every point prior to redline you will NOT be at maximum boost. If maximum boost is 8psi @ 8,000rpms, then at 4,000rpms you'll have approx. 2.8psi, or the square root of max. boost.

Positive or (fixed) displacement Roots style blowers (i.e. JRSC):

Positive displacement blowers produce a fixed amount of airflow regardless of engine rpms. These blowers work in a linear fashion, which is consistent with your engines needs, thus making your motor feel "bigger." In theory, these blowers allow max. boost throughout the entire rpm range. The down side is it's adiabatic efficiency. Despite the improvements Eaton Co. has made, it is still lower than that of a centrifugal compressor.

Positive displacement blowers (Lysolm):

I have been out of the import "loop" for quite some time and I wasn't aware of any screw type blowers available in the U.S.(that of which have been proven reliable). This style blower offers all the advantages of a Roots blower plus it is among the best in thermal efficiency. However, these efficiency ratings are not based on real world applications and do not take into consideration intercooling/aftercooling. These style blowers are very large in size which makes both placement and intercooling very difficult. As opposed to any centrifugal compressor, turbo and SC alike, which are very small in size making placement and intercooling/aftercooling much easier. This is why they are so common.

[exciv2000]

Originally posted by 2000SiVTEC


Dude if you coudl stay ahead of him for 200' I woudl pay y ou. Hell if you could stay in front of me for that long I would pay also......

Shit, staying in front of you would be no fucking problem. you're in the 15s = not that fast. you talk a big game a lot, but you have a lot to learn still steve.

[12seccivy]

hey Scott...
how's that cat setup working out for ya?
any problems?

[john]

Personally I'll take the lag of the turbocharger, along with the massive amount of HP/TQ they can make, over an S/C any day of the week.

[Brian]

Originally posted by exciv2000


Shit, staying in front of you would be no fucking problem. you're in the 15s = not that fast. you talk a big game a lot, but you have a lot to learn still steve.

Ummm that was when steve was bone stock. He has the same mods as tyler now and tyler is running low low 14's. Not to mention this turbo spools up by 2k rpm and makes more boost lowe than the SC did.

[jojo]

Originally posted by john
Personally I'll take the lag of the turbocharger, along with the massive amount of HP/TQ they can make, over an S/C any day of the week.

I understand what you're saying John but it's really all in the design of the system. A properly sized and intercooled PD supercharger is probably the best street setup of all. The problem is I've never seen a good off the shelf kit design for any platform. There are some custom setups I've seen that I think would change your opinion.

[john]

Sure -I'm sure there are. In my little world I've only been exposed to off the shelf stuff, or OEM-supplied stuff w/regard to S/C stuff. Perhaps if my cars up till now had been SC vs TC. :)

On these small displacement motors that I've been playing with for years, the parasitic drain of an S/C just doesn't seem like it'd be worth it, esp since turbocharging is "free"...

[AcuraBro]

Don't forget you're losing around 15% power and torque off runnin that SOB. Strange how superchargers are only produced on cars that have enough excess torque and HP to run them, w/ exception to the corrado G60 which was slow anyway. Wonder why there's so many more factory produced turbo cars.

What a world it would be if DSM's were Supercharged instead of turbo. I would have all-the-less competition. You just couldn't make the cars faster.

[jojo]

Originally posted by 99SIVTEC


Yeah, but adiabatic efficiency doesn't mean much in terms of power and performance. It's the thermal efficiency that sucks on a positive displacement blower.

I think we're talking about different terms here. Adiabatic efficiency is measure of how much a compressor heats the charge above and beyond the thermodynamic minimum. It has a major impact on the ultimate power that can be produced at a give octane level.


Originally posted by 99SIVTEC

The key to making a powerful car with a positive displacement blower is to size the blower properly for the application.

This is critical for the selection of any compressor be it belt or heat driven.

[jojo]

Originally posted by AcuraBro
Don't forget you're losing around 15% power and torque off runnin that SOB.

Ah yes but a twin screw has a some advantages of it's own. Mainly full boost just off idle. You have a MUCH broader powerband than with a turbo. But there's another important benefit to such a low boost threshold that very few people seem to realize. You can run a much lower static compression without the loss in driveability that would come with a turbo. Which of course means that you can run more boost at a given octane level and make up for that difference in parasitic losses.

[john]

So you mean that the T88 I'm thinking of for the 1.8 litre motor in the upcoming A4 may NOT be a good choice?

*grin*

:D

[2000SiVTEC]

Originally posted by exciv2000


Shit, staying in front of you would be no fucking problem. you're in the 15s = not that fast. you talk a big game a lot, but you have a lot to learn still steve.

My friend I dont think theres much you could teach me about the Honda scene or any scene for that matter. I have been around a while watching and learning. I think you have a few things to learn still. See a lot of people on this board know me from racing and doing installs. I think they can back up that I know what I am talking about. Not trying to be an asshole or anything, but did you happen to look at the 60 foot I had? Or the fact it was the first time at the track with the new car. Let me see Jeff ran a 15.1 in his car bone stock, which means my was capable of about the same stock give or take a tenth. Hell I would even put my car on the stock program to do it. If you ever want to try me I am willing to back up my "big game"......Oh and you say 15's arent that fast. Well I can agree with that, but for someone who has never ran a 15 that is big talk.

[12seccivy]

Originally posted by john
So you mean that the T88 I'm thinking of for the 1.8 litre motor in the upcoming A4 may NOT be a good choice?

*grin*

:D

knowing how you are, you probably could pull it off and make it work:eek:

[jojo]

Originally posted by john
So you mean that the T88 I'm thinking of for the 1.8 litre motor in the upcoming A4 may NOT be a good choice?

*grin*

:D

It's all what you're willing to deal with. From a practical standpoint I hope the boost threshold is lower than the redline =]

[exciv2000]

Originally posted by AcuraBro
Don't forget you're losing around 15% power and torque off runnin that SOB. Strange how superchargers are only produced on cars that have enough excess torque and HP to run them, w/ exception to the corrado G60 which was slow anyway. Wonder why there's so many more factory produced turbo cars.

What a world it would be if DSM's were Supercharged instead of turbo. I would have all-the-less competition. You just couldn't make the cars faster.

Let's get this straight. Every turbo car loses about 15% of its HP and TQ at idle and right off the line at low RPMs, they're also losing about that much while cruising. The only time they make up for it is at WOT where it's reduced to about 2%. SC's lose that 15% at WOT only (probably more like 10% for each application), and while cruising use .5 HP, yes, Point Five.

Lets also look at the SC'd cars. Mercedes, done it for years and still doing it. Ford Thunderbird SC, not anymore tho. Pontiac Gran Prix GTP, still doing it. There are more, don't know them all.

Now lets look at TCd cars. Nissan 350Z, nope. Mazda RX8, nope. New Toyota Supra, Nope. DSM, nope, not unless you import the Evo VII. Oh, Dodge is putting a 190 HP one on their Neons and PTBruisers. And Suby WRXs. And VW(Audi included). Volvo. I'm impressed, really. :rolleyes:

Can they both be upgraded to go faster? Yes, turbo being a bit easier with an MBC. So it looks like in the past more turbo cars were produced. People are slowly going away from that because the manufacturers don't want their cars to become drag racers and street racers and baby killers. Also because they are harder to control the emissions on them. Sure, aftermarket manufacturers will continue to produce turbos and SCs for all those cars, but I think they should be subjected to the same emissions requirements of a factory TC'd car. I Know that will never happen.

[Brian]

Where did you pull those 15% numbers from for a turbo???


Notice that all of the cars you mentioned being factory supercharged are all v6's or bigger? The reason being positive displacement superchargers lend themselves better to larger displacement enines. This is why there are no factory supercharged 4 cylinder vehicles around. The corrado was the only one that I can think of, but that isn't a positive displacement blower it is a G ladder design which is very different.

Now on to the factory turbo cars. There have been dozens upon dozens of factory turbo 4 cylinders. You mention emissions. yes that is why turbo's went away for several years here. Now if you look they are coming back, why? Because ecu management and technology has caught up to the strict emissions standards. I can go out and buy a factory turbo car that meets or exceeds all emissions standards. This is why VW brought over the 1.8t's, subaru brought over the wrx, and mitsubishi is bringing over the lancer evo. Next year mazda is also turboing the mp3's and there are rumors of a turbo focus showing up. Sounds like they are making a comeback.

Lets also mention two of the easiest to mod cars around. The supra TT and the grand national T type. Both factory turbo 6 cylinder engines. It's next to impossible to even get your hands on a t type anymore because they are so sought after.

I spent quite a bit of money and time on my supercharged honda dn in the end I was less than satisfied with the performance. I spent well over a year coming up with a cost effective way to intercool and up the boost on that car, but in the end it was less expensive to sell it and buy a turbo car. Do I regret having the honda? Absolutly not! however is is nice knowing that I spent less than a grand on this new car and run almost a full second faster..........

[john]

Good thread.

[jojo]

Originally posted by exciv2000


Let's get this straight. Every turbo car loses about 15% of its HP and TQ at idle and right off the line at low RPMs,

Please provide your source for this number and the experimental conditions under which such a measurement was made.

[2000SiVTEC]

Like Brian said the only factory supercharged 4 cyl. I can think of is the Corrado and like he said it was a G-ladder and if you know anything about them they are very different from a positive displacement blower. The one car I can think of that is currently being produced is the mercedes benz SLk230. That is the ONLY one out there currently. The only other cars out there being produced with SC's are the larger displacement cars liek the Mustang Cobra. Now do Superchargers work well with those cars? Yes they do. Why? well simply because those engines are larger adn are suited better to something that takes power to make power. Now I am not supercharger bashing here, but I am simply staing that they are suited better to a larger engine, I speak form experience. See I guess the arguement here is not which type of forced induction is better, but rather which type is better for a Honda if you want ot make power. That was how this thread started out at least. Just look at it this way if you have a EX that is running equal boost to what you are Scott, chances are he is going to be faster. See with the superchargers on the Hondas you are very limited in your intercooling options. And with the M45 blower you are running you are not going to see much more performance by upping your boost because that supercharger is jsut inefficient past 8 psi. And there is no dodging that as there is no intercooling options avaible for them, Sure you could use water injection, but Brian and I both had that and saw very minimal gains and it did not stop heat soak issues. It was simply putting a band-aid on a more complex problem.

Now what I can say about my Si was that it did have much more linear power than does my current car. When boost comes on in the Jetta it COMES on. And before the turbo spools off of lights it can be a dog sometimes. But I in no way regret tradign my Si for this car. My Si was great adn I had a lot of fun iwth it, but in the end I realized I should have gone turbo with it if i wanted to make good power. So instead of dealing with the issues that so many Turbo Hondas have I opted to go with the next best thing and go factory turbo. This car is faster than my Si was by quite a bit and it has more luxury to boot.

I would also like to know where you got the 15% for a turbo car as I have never heard of this at all in the past.

[john]

How does a turbocharged car LOSE 15% at idle? Or did I misunderstand the post? There is no parasitic load on the motor from the turbocharger...

[SleeperZ]

I believe the 15% "loss" figure for turbo cars off idle comes from the idea that the supercharger makes full boost off idle, where a turbo will not.

And if the turbo won't make full boost until 40% - 50% of redline rpm, whoop-ti-do. With an open exhaust, mine is sure lively off idle, and with a higher rpm launch and little clutch slipping, I have grip and full boost before 60'. Doesn't bother me a bit I'm not making my power potential before my boost threshold -- I'm doing better than any supercharger at 3000 rpm on up because of it's efficiency and lack of parasitic drag.

I make my power in the top half of my rpm band, not my bottom half. ;) :M:

I agree John, good thread :Beer:

[Brian]

Yeah, but a PD Supercharger doesn't make full boost off idle. It will make a pound or two, but doesn't near full boost until later on. In my SI I didn't see FULL boost until after 5 or 5k rpm's. My small ko3 sport turbo on my vw makes 20 psi before 4k rpm's and is above 10 psi at 2k rpm's . Much higher than that of my supercharger.

daily driver with minimum maintenance and a simple bolt on go with a SC. Big power and more work go turbo... at least with a honda.

[12seccivy]

Originally posted by 99SIVTEC
Yeah, but a PD Supercharger doesn't make full boost off idle. It will make a pound or two, but doesn't near full boost until later on. In my SI I didn't see FULL boost until after 5 or 5k rpm's. My small ko3 sport turbo on my vw makes 20 psi before 4k rpm's and is above 10 psi at 2k rpm's . Much higher than that of my supercharger.

daily driver with minimum maintenance and a simple bolt on go with a SC. Big power and more work go turbo... at least with a honda.

mine gets about 4 psi off the throttle... i'm not arguing this point..
seems that s/c cars have many more limitations for tuning for more power.. as for turbo(yes they are more work to install and tune)they give a much better option for upgrading and making more power..i'm considering changing over to a turbo setup for my car in the future.. i'd like to try an eaton M90 first and see if that gets me where i want to be..'burnout:

[Brian]

Go for the M90 :D . I would love to see an M90 on a honda. I still believe the potential is there with a SC, it just has to be tapped. A hybrid car would be a lot easier to intercool in most cases from what I can tell.

Scott i'm telling you man ditch the m45 it's holding you back big time. That blower has almost no potential over stock. You have plenty of room for an m62 and possibly an m90. Either that or look into a lysholm screw type PD sc. They are physically smaller for one that puts out an equal cfm to an eaton blower. Plus the outlet temps are lower.

[exciv2000]

Originally posted by 99SIVTEC

Scott i'm telling you man ditch the m45 it's holding you back big time. That blower has almost no potential over stock. You have plenty of room for an m62 and possibly an m90. Either that or look into a lysholm screw type PD sc. They are physically smaller for one that puts out an equal cfm to an eaton blower. Plus the outlet temps are lower.

Fuck that, M62 will NOT fit, nor anything bigger. Nitrous ownz joo!

[12seccivy]

Originally posted by exciv2000


Fuck that, M62 will NOT fit, nor anything bigger. Nitrous ownz joo!

probably not to that manifold anyways,,
the only way is to custom make a manifold for the m62
i think i would barely have enough room for the m90 if i rework the manifold housing and inlet tube.. i'm not sure yet.
as far as nitrous goes, it will make the sohc scream,as long as you are careful with a/f ratios.. nitrous gives little warning when damage occurs(that's what scares me about it)

someone direct me to where i can get more info on the lysholm screw type s/c. i'm impressed with their design and would like to know more about them.. and where i can find applications for hondas
thanx

[exciv2000]

Butch, check out the Rimmer charger for the SI, they use Lysolms. Also, do a search at hondavision.com, there seems to be some great info there.

As far as my sources, check out this: http://www.geocities.com/eyores1/page5.html. Read the last paragraph or two, and you'll find it. Didn't believe me eh? Read some of Corky Bells books and you'll see that I'm right. Oh yeah, and if you don't know who Corky is, you barely know shit about your SCs and/or Turbos.

[Brian]

Originally posted by exciv2000


Fuck that, M62 will NOT fit, nor anything bigger. Nitrous ownz joo!

KABOOM!!!!!!


and yes it will fit. I know a guy that uses one on a SOHC. YOu just have to have a bracket made up to adapt it to the manifold. It's not rocket science...........

[Brian]

Originally posted by exciv2000
Butch, check out the Rimmer charger for the SI, they use Lysolms. Also, do a search at hondavision.com, there seems to be some great info there.

As far as my sources, check out this: http://www.geocities.com/eyores1/page5.html. Read the last paragraph or two, and you'll find it. Didn't believe me eh? Read some of Corky Bells books and you'll see that I'm right. Oh yeah, and if you don't know who Corky is, you barely know shit about your SCs and/or Turbos.

Oh and rimmer is located here in town. they are no longer in buisness. They had a pretty shotty product. Yes they did use lysholm screw type superchargers though. You can find them fairly easily, but most are applications for v8's. they have them sized for our apps, but you will need either an adaptor plate or a new manifold.


And yes Corky bell is a must read for anyone interested in forced induction there is some useful info there.

[Brian]

Originally posted by exciv2000
Butch, check out the Rimmer charger for the SI, they use Lysolms. Also, do a search at hondavision.com, there seems to be some great info there.

As far as my sources, check out this: http://www.geocities.com/eyores1/page5.html. Read the last paragraph or two, and you'll find it. Didn't believe me eh? Read some of Corky Bells books and you'll see that I'm right. Oh yeah, and if you don't know who Corky is, you barely know shit about your SCs and/or Turbos.

Oh and your 15% number for a turbo app is still bullshit....BTW

[BluByU]

Where's Generic at? Wasn't he going to custom build a turbo setup and ditch his SC?

[b18cya-T]

if only i had started this thread after the cash money thingie started...................

[newt2]

Yeah, but a PD Supercharger doesn't make full boost off idle. It will make a pound or two, but doesn't near full boost until later on. In my SI I didn't see FULL boost until after 5 or 5k rpm's.

What you see on your boost gauge and what you see on a dyno are two different things. On the boost gauge you may see only 2psi, but that's because at that point the engine is taking in all of the extra air. At higher speeds, air is building up in the manifold and that's what you see on your boost gauge.

On the dyno though, you see full torque the instant you give it throttle. Last time I dyno'd my torque curve was as flat as a brain wave monitor on a mullet ;). The only variation was the 5lb/ft jump at the VTEC crossover.

[SleeperZ]

Originally posted by exciv2000
Butch, check out the Rimmer charger for the SI, they use Lysolms. Also, do a search at hondavision.com, there seems to be some great info there.

As far as my sources, check out this: http://www.geocities.com/eyores1/page5.html. Read the last paragraph or two, and you'll find it. Didn't believe me eh? Read some of Corky Bells books and you'll see that I'm right. Oh yeah, and if you don't know who Corky is, you barely know shit about your SCs and/or Turbos.

Whoops! We can't find your page!

[SleeperZ]

Originally posted by newt2


What you see on your boost gauge and what you see on a dyno are two different things. On the boost gauge you may see only 2psi, but that's because at that point the engine is taking in all of the extra air. At higher speeds, air is building up in the manifold and that's what you see on your boost gauge.

On the dyno though, you see full torque the instant you give it throttle. Last time I dyno'd my torque curve was as flat as a brain wave monitor on a mullet ;). The only variation was the 5lb/ft jump at the VTEC crossover.

I'm not sure I follow the "full" torque idea if you don't have full boost. That tells me your supercharger doesn't have the rpms to boost the manifold, and you are tapping it out flow-wise. The torque curve may be flat (love your analogy to mullet brain waves ;)), but the maximum torque curve would probably peak, then drop off.

[newt2]

You're thinking in terms of compressors. A roots blower doesn't compress air it just moves it. The boost gauge reads "left over" air in the manifold.

Since it's tied to the engine by a belt, it's synchronized with the engine. The blower moves in extra air to the manifold and the valves open up and take it in. What's left over is seen as boost on your gauge. At any engine speed, the amount of extra air being given to the motor is exactly the same per engine revolution.

[exciv2000]

Originally posted by newt2
You're thinking in terms of compressors. A roots blower doesn't compress air it just moves it. The boost gauge reads "left over" air in the manifold.

Since it's tied to the engine by a belt, it's synchronized with the engine. The blower moves in extra air to the manifold and the valves open up and take it in. What's left over is seen as boost on your gauge. At any engine speed, the amount of extra air being given to the motor is exactly the same per engine revolution.

Exactly, that's why they say you hit full boost off idle., It's instantaneous. It doesn't matter if you're doing 2000 RPM or 12,000 RPM, your blower is still moving the same amount of air.

[exciv2000]

Originally posted by SleeperZ


Whoops! We can't find your page!

Here, try it without the period, duh! http://www.geocities.com/eyores1/page5.html

[exciv2000]

Originally posted by 99SIVTEC


Oh and your 15% number for a turbo app is still bullshit....BTW

Yeah, it was a bit off, still not bullshit tho. I pulled the 15% before I had found my link, then realized i was slightly wrong, it's not 15%, but you still lose power at idle and some while cruising.

Read the link "Turbochargers require a 2 HP drain to drive the unit. Out of boost, turbochargers can use up to 10 HP, depending on the efficiency of the exhaust manifold."

[Brian]

Originally posted by exciv2000


Yeah, it was a bit off, still not bullshit tho. I pulled the 15% before I had found my link, then realized i was slightly wrong, it's not 15%, but you still lose power at idle and some while cruising.

Read the link "Turbochargers require a 2 HP drain to drive the unit. Out of boost, turbochargers can use up to 10 HP, depending on the efficiency of the exhaust manifold."

Ok so at worst on a 300 hp car a turbo could use as much as 3 percent.

[Brian]

Originally posted by exciv2000


Exactly, that's why they say you hit full boost off idle., It's instantaneous. It doesn't matter if you're doing 2000 RPM or 12,000 RPM, your blower is still moving the same amount of air.

I'll post up a video later today of my boost gauge so you guys can see all the "lag"

[newt2]

I'll post up a video later today of my boost gauge so you guys can see all the "lag"

Not a valid comparison Brian. You have a small turbo and an engine that's suited to it (a lot lower redline than your Si). If your motor went to 8 grand we'd see virtually no lag, but the dyno would show that the turbo is making almost no additional power beyond 6000rpm.

Honda engines aren't suited to a turbo that small. You need something bigger to make power in the upper rpm range in order to see killer ETs from a Honda. Those bigger turbos lag.

[Brian]

True, although redline on my car is technically 8k with the chip now, at least that is when fuel cut comes on. It does drop in power quite a bit near the top. Even a T25 or T3/T4 doesn't have very much lag.

Anyhow the turbo vs. SC debate is never going to end. Both have their place and purpose.

[newt2]

T3/T4 doesn't have very much lag.

Korney probably knows better than I do, but it seemed to me that his car didn't spool up till about 3500rpm. To me that's a LOT of lag.

[Brian]

Originally posted by newt2


Korney probably knows better than I do, but it seemed to me that his car didn't spool up till about 3500rpm. To me that's a LOT of lag.

Yeah his did have quite a bit of lag. The one that they are using on the APR kit for the VW's is said to spool at almost the same point as the stock K03, but I believe it is a T25 as well.

[SleeperZ]

Originally posted by newt2
You're thinking in terms of compressors. A roots blower doesn't compress air it just moves it. The boost gauge reads "left over" air in the manifold.

Since it's tied to the engine by a belt, it's synchronized with the engine. The blower moves in extra air to the manifold and the valves open up and take it in. What's left over is seen as boost on your gauge. At any engine speed, the amount of extra air being given to the motor is exactly the same per engine revolution.

Now you've really lost me. If the air is not compressed, how do you move more air through the motor for more power? If you mash the throttle (resulting in zero vacuum), and you have no boost pressure, all you have is a naturally aspirated motor.

:confused: :confused:

[newt2]

It gets compressed in the manifold, but that compression is more of a backed up pressure effect whereas a turbo or centrifugal blower compresses the air at the turbine.

Think of a fan in your house. It moves air, but it doesn't compress it. Now if you stick a bag in front of it, you'll wind up inflating the bag and getting compression that way but it that's caused by stuffing a large amount of air into a small place. The fan isn't compressing air.

I wish I still had my dyno chart, but unfortunately it got destroyed at the first import event last season, it was sitting out when all that rain hit. The dyno clearly showed no increase in torque across the entire powerband, in fact it was shaped like a stock ITR powerband, just 35 or 40lb/ft higher.

I wish I had a better way of explaining it, but a look at a dyno chart says it all. Roots blowers conform to the cars powerband, turbos force thier powerband on the car.

[SleeperZ]

I don't doubt your dyno charts, and I don't doubt the roots type chargers boost torque off idle. What I do doubt is you have no boost pressure, given the above statements.

Of course roots type blowers are sized to the engine, but if you have no positive manifold pressure generated, you have no increase in power. It seems to me that simple. The engine has no idea what sits on it's inlet - the only way a boosted application makes more power is to have a higher pressure difference in the manifold to flow more air into the engine.

What am I missing? Any further clarification?

[Brian]

I still have the dyno from my si, i'll ty to scan and post it.

he is correct though a roots blower dowesn't compress air inside the unit itself. Thats one of the things that lowers it's efficiency. Lysholm screw type superchargers are so much more efficient because the shape of the rotor compresses air inside the blower.

An M62 moves 62 cfm of air per rotation no matter what speed it is turning. The compression of the air happens in the intake manifold behind the valves. The heat is caused because the air coming form the blower outlet is very turbulent compared to most other compressors. With all of that said it is simple to conclude that to increase boost pressure you have to increase blower rpm so there are more rotations per second and more airflow. Does that make a little more sense?

[tsitim]

GOOOO turbo I love boost it's even funner then some sex!
personally I think turbo's are better for weakend warrior cars then daily drivers. S/C's are dope but limited.

[SleeperZ]

I understand how a root or screw type blower works, yes. It is sized and rotated appropriately to the engine's size (air consumption). If your engine consumes 300 cfm of air at 3000 rpm, and your charger moves 300 cfm of air at 3000 crank rpm, you get 0 boost and 0 power increase over N/A. So you size your blower to move 350 cfm of air at the same rpm, or you spin your blower faster to the same effect. This extra airflow will result in a manifold pressure rise to the extent the engine can use it - it will result in a power increase. If you say you can get more power out of a boosted engine without a manifold pressure rise, I have an electric supercharger to sell you :p

[Brian]

I see your point. And yeah you have to have an increase in manifold pressure to make more power. When I went from 6 psi to 10 psi (6% overdriven to 11% I believe) The main thing I noticed was an increased low end because there was more boost down low. It kind of runs out of steam in the top so the top end gains were not as good as expected. Your statement above was dead on though. I'm not totally sure where pat is coming from yet with the added torque at 0 boost though.

[newt2]

I don't doubt your dyno charts, and I don't doubt the roots type chargers boost torque off idle. What I do doubt is you have no boost pressure, given the above statements

It's not that you're getting no boost pressure, because you are. It's just at slower rpms the engine is able to ingest all the extra air being fed to it, at higher rpms it backs up and you see more pressure on the gauge than you did at a lower engine speed.

Edit: I never said you see zero boost, I'm attempting to explain why torque appears constant accross a dyno regardless of rpm even though you only see 2psi at 2000rpm and 6psi at 6000rpm.

[SleeperZ]

I think we are on the same page now. Good discussion.

[MiniMonster]

So it's like getting a blow job then kinda? Does she start off slow and keep the same ammount of suckage the whole time? Or does she build up more sucking force as she time goes on? I think that sums it up.

[TedR719]

I totally agree with this statement!

When I had the JRSC on my car for that day :o I remember putting it in reverse and hitting the gas, instantly I could tell the difference in the low end tq :D


Originally posted by 99SIVTEC
main thing I noticed was an increased low end because there was more boost down low. It kind of runs out of steam in the top so the top end gains were not as good as expected.

[exciv2000]

Originally posted by MiniMonster
So it's like getting a blow job then kinda? Does she start off slow and keep the same ammount of suckage the whole time? Or does she build up more sucking force as she time goes on? I think that sums it up.

WTF?! Go read a book or something until you get a clue. Comparing a blowjob to boost, sheesh. The only blowjob or boost you get is from your sister and her chihuahua (sp?)

[newt2]

I don't know, when I get a blow job I feel boosted.... :)

[MiniMonster]

Originally posted by exciv2000


WTF?! Go read a book or something until you get a clue. Comparing a blowjob to boost, sheesh. The only blowjob or boost you get is from your sister and her chihuahua (sp?)


Don;t get all butt hurt because no girl will touch your stinky weenie dude.....

[exciv2000]

Originally posted by newt2
I don't know, when I get a blow job I feel boosted.... :)
hehehe

[exciv2000]

Originally posted by MiniMonster



Don;t get all butt hurt because no girl will touch your stinky weenie dude.....

Uh yeah, you really know what you're talking about don't you? I just got engaged to be married. You think I'm some guy who doesn't have sex until he's married, boy I've got news for you! I'd venture to say I have sex more per MONTH with my future wife then you have had in your whole pathetic existence. And no, I'm not bragging, just setting your record straight!

[MiniMonster]

So then you admit you ahve a small penis????

[exciv2000]

Originally posted by MiniMonster
So then you admit you ahve a small penis????

Tell me where I admitted such a lie? I'm not going to go into size comparisons, but it's anything but small.

[MiniMonster]

Originally posted by exciv2000


Tell me where I admitted such a lie? I'm not going to go into size comparisons, but it's anything but small.

Sounds like something a guy with a small penis would say!!

It's cool bra we can't all be hung like a freak pony....

[SleeperZ]

Originally posted by exciv2000


Tell me where I admitted such a lie? I'm not going to go into size comparisons, but it's anything but small.

Hook, line and sinker :gapteeth:

[12seccivy]

Originally posted by futuresi
I totally agree with this statement!

When I had the JRSC on my car for that day :o I remember putting it in reverse and hitting the gas, instantly I could tell the difference in the low end tq :D




DITTO,mine will rip the tires loose off the line into 3rd gear with no problem.. now THAT'S torque.but like brian said.. i lost power above 7300 rpms.. i think the overlap may have something to do with this...:eek:

[exciv2000]

Originally posted by SleeperZ
Hook, line and sinker :gapteeth:

Well only my future wife knows best, and she'll tell you the same thing I did:D Anyways, back to the topic...

[b18cya-T]

ya, eonough faggot shit in my thread

[Mrdmdstar]

sometimes

[1FAST4]

MiniMonster, does it say "fag squad" under your handle and what the hell are you wearing in that pic?

[MiniMonster]

Originally posted by 1FAST4
MiniMonster, does it say "fag squad" under your handle and what the hell are you wearing in that pic?

It's called a fucking kilt you cock whore. I happen to be from Scottland and am insulted by your apparent lack of culture. From this point on you shall be renamed as my bitch..... you have been warned buttercup........ heed my warning.

[newt2]

It's called a fucking kilt you cock whore.

Is that what you call it?

My wife calls it a nightie.... :)

[b18cya-T]

Originally posted by MiniMonster


It's called a fucking kilt

so does that mean you get butt fucked whenever you wear the "Fucking Kilt" ?

[nolimitsoldier]

bwahahahaha!:rofl:

[MiniMonster]

OMG you guys are funny!!!

[stu]

MiniMonster: I don't think that I've ever seen a kilt with spagehti straps before, espeacially when they start at the waist and not at the shoulders.

I also noticed that you keep saying that you're hung like a pony. Most people say "hung like a horse". I also noticed that many people have great respect for horses becuase of their power and grace. Where as those same people load up a pony and make it carry all of their shit; ie: clothes, bags, food, kids. Did anyone else notice this?

Oh yeah, I remember you saying "hung like a freak pony", is this suposed to insinuate a pony with an unusually small penis, unusually saggy tits, or maybe a female pony that was unfortunate enough to be born with some sort of growth in the genital area tha slightly resembles a penis?

[stu]

I noticed that a lot of people say that a T25 is too small for a high-reving Honda motor. What about a T3. Where does that fall between a T25 and a T3/4? Are there any other turbos that work well with Honda motors that I should be aware of?

[exciv2000]

Originally posted by newt2


Is that what you call it?

My wife calls it a nightie.... :)

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[exciv2000]

Originally posted by stu
MiniMonster: I don't think that I've ever seen a kilt with spagehti straps before, espeacially when they start at the waist and not at the shoulders.

I also noticed that you keep saying that you're hung like a pony. Most people say "hung like a horse". I also noticed that many people have great respect for horses becuase of their power and grace. Where as those same people load up a pony and make it carry all of their shit; ie: clothes, bags, food, kids. Did anyone else notice this?

Oh yeah, I remember you saying "hung like a freak pony", is this suposed to insinuate a pony with an unusually small penis, unusually saggy tits, or maybe a female pony that was unfortunate enough to be born with some sort of growth in the genital area tha slightly resembles a penis?

That makes me laugh out loud too. :D

[1FAST4]

Oh yeah, I remember you saying "hung like a freak pony", is this suposed to insinuate a pony with an unusually small penis, unusually saggy tits, or maybe a female pony that was unfortunate enough to be born with some sort of growth in the genital area tha slightly resembles a penis?

:spit:

[2002jettavr6]

Aer you sure it that big

[2002jettavr6]

its problobe even smaller then that

[b18cya-T]

Originally posted by 2002jettavr6
problobe

http://images.cardomain.com/installs/139000-139999/139047_19_full.jpg

[1FAST4]

:guns: 2002jettavr6

You stole- someone arrest him. I am making a list of everyone who steals from me. Then I am taking the law into my own hands! :mad:

[newt2]

I am making a list of everyone who steals from me. Then I am taking the law into my own hands!

You can go ahead and add me to the list. :D

[paseopimp]

neither go twin turbo and a supercharger, dont forget the nawwws

[Controller]

go turbo