HUGE frickin brakes?

[boostedEG]

whats the absolute biggest brakes front and rear that i could fit on my del sol? im ok with "custom" setups as long as they work

i have been wanting to upgrade them for awhile, thinking about the wilwood kit, but wasn't sure. then the other day at a stop light i noticed a newer bimmer that appeared to have 18" wheels, and the caliper just BARELY cleared the wheel. i swear it had to of had atleast 14" rotors, they were huge! it looked sexy, and i want that look.

are there any downsides to going too big?

[mtpktz.]

Big Brake Kit.

Otherwise, you can go 5lug, which is a waste of $ in my opinion because people just do it for ITR wheels.

The logic doesn't make sense. "I'll spend $1,000 on the 5lug conversion, then another $500 for OEM! ITR wheels."

This is one of the dumbest things you can do because:

1. You just spent $1,500 to sport some OEM 15" Honda wheels.
2. You gain a bigger rotor by going the 5 lug route, however not as much as you would if you went for a big brake kit.
3. You're spending $1,500 to sport some OEM 15" Honda wheels!

So to answer your question - go with a big brake kit. Granted, you're not going to have a 15" rotor, but it will be larger than your OEM one, obviously.

Personally, if you're not tracking the car, I wouldn't waste the money on a big brake kit for a Daily Driven Honda Civic, but to each their own.

[velocity]

big brake kit is the biggest you can go or i've seen people sweap the 11" rotors from the vtec model or maybe it was the civic/integra not sure. but sure you can get like 14" rotors but would at least need some 17" wheel to clear

[sbiggi]

11" is big? Thats weak.

How big are the Willowood brakes?

[velocity]

yeah have to take into consideration this is a honda not a ferrari and only come stock with like 8.5-11" rotors

[boostedEG]

mine is already the vtec model... and i believe they are the same as integra brakes.

i have 18" wheels so wheel size isn't too much of an issue. i just want to fill the empty space i have now.

[boostedEG]

11" is big? Thats weak.

How big are the Willowood brakes?

agreed, i want atleast 13" rotors.

im not sure how big the wilwoods are, but i know you need at least 17" wheels

[ComputerJLT]

I've seen 14" rotors and 6 piston caliper kits for honda's...

biggest easiest oem upgrade is to get some EG sedan rotors, and itr/legend/nsx calipers. I think the eg sedans are 11.5 or 12. Dont recall off the top of my head.

[STIBungy]

Go to fastbrakes.com.

[boostedEG]

i was just looking around, and came across the powerslot big brake kit, and according to them stock rotors are between 9.8 and 10.3 or something. they didnt list any civic/integra as being over 11" stock. the bigger rotors they offered were 12" front and 11.10 rear.

i did come across a stoptech kit that offers 12.9 front rotors and 4 piston calipers.... but it was $1800... thats WAY more than im looking to spend.

havent found any real info on the wilwoods yet.

oh and i just found the brembo GT 313mm big brake kit for $2300... :(
how many inches is 313mm anyways?

[Bedlam]

The del Sol doesnt weigh hardly anything..wtf are you worried about HUGE brakes for?

[Mario]

how many inches is 313mm anyways?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=Dtx&q=313mm+to+inches&btnG=Search

[boostedEG]

The del Sol doesnt weigh hardly anything..wtf are you worried about HUGE brakes for?

actually they are kinda heavy... for a honda anyways.

1) better braking
2) looks

when im out fuckin around and driving aggressivly the stock brakes get quite hot and smoke a bit. and i would love to try a little autocross next summer, better braking cant hurt.

[Mario]

No offense but good rotors, good pads, good lines, and good tires will do more for you than a 'big brake kit' ever will.

[chris_venturini]

a big brake kit is pretty much a big ball of expensive rice

[boostedEG]

No offense but good rotors, good pads, good lines, and good tires will do more for you than a 'big brake kit' ever will.

yeah i know, i was readding this article from http://www.raceshopper.com/tech.shtml#big_brake



Are Big Brake kits really better?
Big brake kits that are incorrectly designed can acutally perform worse than your stock brakes. Bigger pads and rotors primarily do one thing: They dissipate more heat than the stock brake setup. They do not necessarily stop you in shorter distances. Stopping distances are impacted by the coefficient of friction of the brake pad used and the clamping force applied by the caliper. Bigger brake pads do not apply more pressure- they only apply the same pressure over a bigger area. But- Don't take our word for it:
Here's a link to the test data for StopTech with their upgrade kit on an Audi S4:
http://www.stoptech.com/technical/balancedchart.htm
Note the next closest stopping disance in the chart is the OEM system!
Here's another link to another test using a Nissan 350Z:
http://www.zeckhausen.com/testing_brakes.htm#Summary
Note that the stock brake system on the 350Z (non track model) utilizes a 11 3/4" front rotor. For their test- they upgraded this to either a 13" or 14" rotor!
So- you can put a 13" or 14" rotor on the front of the car - and it still only stops about 7 feet shorter than the stock 12" rotor.....
We applaud StopTech- they seem like good people- and they are one of the few companies providing REAL information. They tell you exactly what we tell you earlier:
If heat dissipation is of primary concern- then a big brake kit will reduce the rotor and caliper temperatures. Otherwise, Premium Grade Brake Pads with higher temperature range capabilities and a higher coefficient of friction will provide the best improvement in braking performance.




but in the example they gave for the 350Z, it didn't hurt brake performance, they just basically said it wasn't worth the money. they did however say that bigger brakes will help dissipate heat, which if my brakes are smoking then obviously that would be a good thing for me. and like i mentioned before, i like the looks too.

[Slow96GSR]

Wilwoods use like a 11.75" rotor and Bear has up to a 12.5". I have the Baer kits and love them. They are plenty for any car as long as you know what type of caliper and m.c. you need. Find a online calculator. A full front and rear kit with bias valve is like $1600 from Baer and about that from Wilwood. Brembo's are over priced imo.

[Kinematics]

i want that look.

You fucken ricer. How about wanting the braking advantages a large brake kit offers? :confused:

[David]

What braking advantages? Only thing a big brake kit would do to most of the cars on this site is just weigh them down

[Kinematics]

-Big brake kits like the Wilwood kits often weigh less than the stock setup. I have a pair of Wilwood Superlights here that the two calipers weigh less than one stock caliper.

-A larger rotor allows for greater cooling capacity and heat absorption, allowing for increased use under racing conditions.

-A pad placed further away from the center of the hub allows for greater braking torque.

-A larger pad size allows for greater braking surface area.

-More pistons in the caliper than the stock setup allows for a more even application of the pad to the rotor, increasing braking effectiveness

If none of this makes any sense, then you should not have a big brake kit. If you don't race on a racetrack and only drive your car on the street, you should not have a big brake kit. Why not? Because it serves you no advantage so of course you won't think a BBK is doing you any good. BBKs are about as useful on a street car as a roll cage.

[Slow96GSR]

...More pistons in the caliper than the stock setup allows for a more even application of the pad to the rotor, increasing braking effectiveness...

Have you seen the caliper with like 16 pistons? I can't remember if it was Baer or Wilwood but it definitely spread the force evenly! I'll see if I can find the link

[sbiggi]

I went from 10" to 11" in my jetta, with the EBC Green Stuff on both. The difference was huge out at 2nd Creek and just breaking on exit ramps.

I wouldnt mind just the Baer Track kit for my eclipse. Slowing down at bandimere my brakes get hot. Out at 2nd Creek I cooked the paint of the pads and calipers.

[myshtern]

No offense but good rotors, good pads, good lines, and good tires will do more for you than a 'big brake kit' ever will.

Unless you're overheating, then you need bigger rotors

[stu]

Yeah, my Accord rotors are too small for the car and warp in about a month or two. Wouldn't larger rotors be beneficial for me?

[Kinematics]

Get shit that isn't Autozone and you will have good braking. I beat the fuck out of my Brembo blank rotors and they took it all with no problem.

When you have crappy rotors they will warp or fade easily. If you also have crappy pads they will do you no good at all. I suggest getting some Brembo blank rotors and some Hawk HPS pads, and go from there.

[Weston-work]

11" is big? Thats weak.

How big are the Willowood brakes?

11" is much more than most Hondas need or can even use. Unless you're 200+ HP and road course racing on R-compound tires, 10" rotors with the right pads will give you more braking power than your tires can handle, so 11" is useless for most people. I ran stock 10.3" rotors for 2 years on the road course and it held up decently with race pads... I finally upgraded to 11" rotors (Prelude rotors drilled to 4x100 with Type-R calipers; about $225 total) to improve consistency and get a little more performance out of my R-compounds in the braking zones, but I probably could have gotten away with just running more extreme brake pads on the 10.3" rotors. I did go through 10.3" rotors a lot faster than I do with 11" rotors, but that's at the race track; it doesn't make much difference on the street.

For street use, it's nothing but a complete waste of money to "upgrade" to bigger brakes. Your brakes don't stop the car, your tires do. Stronger brakes just mean that your tires will lock up easier, which means less control and less actual stopping performance (skidding reduces your traction by around 30%). Not to mention that you'll alter your braking balance, and not for the better, especially on non-ABS cars. Stock 10.3" rotors and calipers can do amazing things if you let them, so if your stock brakes suck, it's because of your pads and/or fluid, not the rotors or calipers. Save your money and just put on decent brake pads, then flush & bleed the fluid with something that's DOT4 rated.

[Mario]

11" is much more than most Hondas need or can even use. Unless you're 200+ HP and road course racing on R-compound tires, 10" rotors with the right pads will give you more braking power than your tires can handle, so 11" is useless for most people. I ran stock 10.3" rotors for 2 years on the road course and it held up decently with race pads... I finally upgraded to 11" rotors (Prelude rotors drilled to 4x100 with Type-R calipers; about $225 total) to improve consistency and get a little more performance out of my R-compounds in the braking zones, but I probably could have gotten away with just running more extreme brake pads on the 10.3" rotors. I did go through 10.3" rotors a lot faster than I do with 11" rotors, but that's at the race track; it doesn't make much difference on the street.

For street use, it's nothing but a complete waste of money to "upgrade" to bigger brakes. Your brakes don't stop the car, your tires do. Stronger brakes just mean that your tires will lock up easier, which means less control and less actual stopping performance (skidding reduces your traction by around 30%). Not to mention that you'll alter your braking balance, and not for the better, especially on non-ABS cars. Stock 10.3" rotors and calipers can do amazing things if you let them, so if your stock brakes suck, it's because of your pads and/or fluid, not the rotors or calipers. Save your money and just put on decent brake pads, then flush & bleed the fluid with something that's DOT4 rated.

Thank you thank you thank you. No one understands...

[Kinematics]

Thank you thank you thank you. No one understands...



I don't. ;NutKick;

[Weston-work]

Unless you're overheating, then you need bigger rotors

No, you need to try better pads first. Good pads can make a huge difference in stopping power, consistency, and heat tolerance.

Yeah, my Accord rotors are too small for the car and warp in about a month or two. Wouldn't larger rotors be beneficial for me?

No... "warping" is almost always pad deposits from crappy pads. I never had any warped feeling with Axxis Ultimate brake pads, or my Cobalt road racing pads, but I always got it real bad (as well as bad glazing) with crappy Autozone pads. The Autozone pads (and most other generic pads) don't offer much out of the box, but get them hot and they'll stink, stopping power will go to shit, they'll leave deposits in the rotors to create that "warped" feeling, and they'll glaze over... get them really hot and they'll smoke and catch on fire. A performance pad will take a lot more heat before it overheats and loses it's grip, and they generally wont glaze over, leave deposits in the rotor, or catch fire.

Get shit that isn't Autozone and you will have good braking. I beat the fuck out of my Brembo blank rotors and they took it all with no problem.

:werd: The Autozone Duralast/Aimco blank rotors are actually pretty good. I used many sets of them on the road course, and so do many other Honda road racers. Just stay away from the cheap "Valucraft" brand... those crack easily. Also stay away from Autozone brake pads... get something decent like Axxis/PBR or Hawk.

[Kinematics]

For the price you would pay for a good set of Hawk pads (60-75 bucks for Hawk HPS), compared to the price you pay for crap pads like what you get at Autozone, the difference in braking, pad life, pad durability, is more than worth it.

[myshtern]

No, you need to try better pads first. Good pads can make a huge difference in stopping power, consistency, and heat tolerance.


Weston, these are friction brakes meaning no matter what pads you use, they exert heat. The car with 10" rotors will require the same energy as it would with 11" rotors to stop. Good pads will make a difference in stopping power, but all I said was heat dissipation.

That extra inch in rotor size from 10" to 11", will give you an additional 21% surface area.

If you went from 10" to 12", you would have an additional 44% surface area.

I'm sure you wont believe me and go back to talking about pads or something else so just ask Rmcdaniels who has used both stock rotors with good pads and tires and larger rotors with good pads and tires.

Bigger rotors allow for far better heat dissipation and their coefficiant of friction is also exponentially larger because of the leverage you get as you go closer to the edge of the rim.

[Weston-work]

Weston, these are friction brakes meaning no matter what pads you use, they exert heat. The car with 10" rotors will require the same energy as it would with 11" rotors to stop. Good pads will make a difference in stopping power, but all I said was heat dissipation.

That extra inch in rotor size from 10" to 11", will give you an additional 21% surface area.

If you went from 10" to 12", you would have an additional 44% surface area.

I'm sure you wont believe me and go back to talking about pads or something else so just ask Rmcdaniels who has used both stock rotors with good pads and tires and larger rotors with good pads and tires.

Bigger rotors allow for far better heat dissipation and their coefficiant of friction is also exponentially larger because of the leverage you get as you go closer to the edge of the rim.

Once again, you are arguing something that you neither understand, nor have actual experience with. I'm obviously well aware of the advantages of heat dissapation and surface area of larger rotors, but it just isn't that simple. Bigger rotors cost you not only money, but some performance as well, because they are quite comparable to running a heavier flywheel. They also do not determine your braking performance as much as pad choice does.

The brake pad is the main thing that determines your coefficient of friction at various temperatures, and that's why every road racer who knows his shit evaluates his pad choice before messing with the rotors. This is because if you run the right pads, you can have a heck of a lot of brake grip under very high temperatures (even glowing hot), so you don't need to dissapate heat or use more surface area to get your desired level of braking performance. And as I pointed out earlier, if your brakes can already use your tires for all their worth (ie lock them up in a braking zone), then you aren't going to stop any faster if you further upgrade your brakes... they will just lock up easier and be harder to treshold brake.

Some road course racers do find it useful to upgrade their rotors, such as myself and rmcdaniels, but most don't. Our needs are a hell of a lot different than most, but we aren't even talking about racers in this thread, because it's clearly a street use scenario, so that makes it even more silly.

[myshtern]

Once again, you are arguing something that you neither understand, nor have actual experience with. I'm obviously well aware of the advantages of heat dissapation and surface area of larger rotors, but it just isn't that simple. Bigger rotors cost you not only money, but some performance as well, because they are quite comparable to running a heavier flywheel. They also do not determine your braking performance as much as pad choice does.

The brake pad is the main thing that determines your coefficient of friction at various temperatures, and that's why every road racer who knows his shit evaluates his pad choice before messing with the rotors. Some racers find it useful to upgrade their rotors, such as myself and rmcdaniels, but most don't. This is because if you run the right pads, you can have a heck of a lot of brake grip under very high temperatures (even glowing hot), so you don't need to dissapate heat or use more surface area to get your desired level of braking performance. And as I pointed out earlier, if your brakes can already use your tires for all their worth (ie lock them up in a braking zone), then you aren't going to stop any faster if you further upgrade your brakes... they will just lock up easier and be harder to treshold brake.

Weston, you need some poon.
There is a real freak who lives on my floor, I think she can treat you right.

[Weston-work]

Weston, you need some poon.
There is a real freak who lives on my floor, I think she can treat you right.

I'll take your lack of a serious response as an indication that you don't have any more "wisdom" to share with us...

[myshtern]

Well I just found your whole rebuttle kind of funny:
"Bigger rotors wont help you but me and the serious racers, we use them"

Spin it all you want but bigger rotors are better. Sure most people dont need them, but why do people need big engines? I guess we should all be driving 3 cylinder metros.

Oh and my response was serious, you interested?

[Weston-work]

You obviously didn't read or understand my posts then. Just because some of us have a legitimate use for bigger rotors does not mean that it's useful for everyone, and it can quite easily be wasteful and counter-productive for most people, especially when we're talking about street use. It's not even about having something that you don't need, but rather something that you can't even use, and something that actually works against you.

Like I said, the brakes don't stop the car, the tires do. With street tires and conditions, you're not going to have anywhere near the grip level that a race car does at the track, and therefore you don't need or want to have the same braking force of a race car because it'll just lock the tires up right away. If you just let it skid, you're giving up 30% of your available traction; if you try to threshold brake, it will be difficult to keep it on the edge because the tires will lock up so easily. Either way, you're better off with "weaker" brakes, which better match the grip level of your tires. You have to match the brakes to the tires and surface conditions, because they work as a package, and you don't want race tires nor race brakes on the street.

[myshtern]

So if you have decent tires bigger rotors will help you stop faster but you could get the same from just getting better pads. That's what you're trying to say.

[Kinematics]

So if you have decent tires bigger rotors will help you stop faster but you could get the same from just getting better pads. That's what you're trying to say.

Stop. Go back to page 1. Reread every post made by myself and Weston.

Then you will understand. Well, at least that is the idea.

[myshtern]

Stop. Go back to page 1. Reread every post made by myself and Weston.

Then you will understand. Well, at least that is the idea.
Why are you jumping on the Weston bandwagon now?
You've been saying the opposite.

[Kinematics]

No I haven't. Bigger brakes are an advantage, yes. But you also need the tires to back it up and the REASON to have them in the first place. Sure, put them on if you want, but if you aren't road racing you aren't putting them to good use and you just wasted your money.

What Weston is saying is that they are good, but there isn't any reason to have them if you are just fucking around on the streets.. and a good OEM size rotor/pad combination with some good fluid and good street tires will be a perfectly fine setup for any street car.

[myshtern]

We're not talking about what is more economical.

Weston has been saying since like 1999 that bigger rotors are not advantageous. He's slowly coming around and almost saying that they will help you stop faster. Obviously no brakes are going to help you if you lock up the tires, thats a given.

Kinematics, keep your newb ass out of this one.

[boostedEG]

i think a lot of people are just assuming different things here...

1) i mentioned above that i do want to take it to the track next summer. it wont be a track only car, but a weekend racer.

2) im currently running some falken grb fk451's. im no tire expert, but they seem to have a decent amount of traction (when i was N/A i could dump the clutch from redline and they would only spin for 5 feet). these tires are gettin low on tread now, and i was thinking about getting drag radials next time around.... i do consider this a daily driver, but i drive my talon most the time.

3) weston made a comment about whether or not the car has 200+HP... well i wont know till next spring when i finally get it tuned, but it should be over double that on high boost... obviously thats probably gonna be too much power, but i can always turn the boost down.


so maybe im missing something here but i think big brakes are justifiable for my situation. so how would i be a ricer for putting them on my car? am i ricer for putting bigger sway bars on too? ....jackasses

[Kinematics]

You're a ricer for mentioning how much you want the look, and saying nothing about wanting better braking until this post you made just now.

Anyway, you would be better off with your stock brakes at first that way you know where your car needs improvement most. You'll learn faster when your car is more of a hinderance, rather than something that does more of the work for you.

[Skaterkid]

Weston, these are friction brakes meaning no matter what pads you use, they exert heat. The car with 10" rotors will require the same energy as it would with 11" rotors to stop. Good pads will make a difference in stopping power, but all I said was heat dissipation.

That extra inch in rotor size from 10" to 11", will give you an additional 21% surface area.

If you went from 10" to 12", you would have an additional 44% surface area.

I'm sure you wont believe me and go back to talking about pads or something else so just ask Rmcdaniels who has used both stock rotors with good pads and tires and larger rotors with good pads and tires.

Bigger rotors allow for far better heat dissipation and their coefficiant of friction is also exponentially larger because of the leverage you get as you go closer to the edge of the rim.

You'll gain additional torque from a bigger rotor but no advantage in coefficient of friction. Coefficient of friction is determined by your pad.

[boostedEG]

You're a ricer for mentioning how much you want the look, and saying nothing about wanting better braking until this post you made just now.



when bedlam asked me why i wanted a big brake kit im pretty sure i said:

1) better braking
2) looks

and i said 2 or 3 times that i had a problem with overheating my brakes. (yes i know we already discussed that better pads would help this)

so if you had actually read everything you would have noticed i mentioned numerous times that i wanted better braking. the looks is just a very nice bonus.

[sbiggi]

Big brakes on a sreet car are still useful.

They will help a normal street pad stay effective because the larger rotor will disipate more heat.

Plus with good pads you can beat the shit out of them at the track and not have to worry about fade as much.

They also look better when they fill out the wheel, which is partially why I went with bigger on my jetta. That and I use to run autoX and timetrials with it.

[riceburner700]

Go to fastbrakes.com.

they got the best shit for the price

[Kinematics]

There is never going to be any resolution on this thread. The facts have been laid out, so do to your car what would make you happy and would fit within your budget.

I also agree that www.fastbrakes.com has decent prices, though I have found cheaper elsewhere.. do your research and you'll find a good deal.

[Weston-work]

So if you have decent tires bigger rotors will help you stop faster but you could get the same from just getting better pads. That's what you're trying to say.

No, not "decent" tires, but race tires, as in R-compounds that are only used on the road course, not the street. There is a HUGE difference between real race tires and even the stickyest street tire. Stock 10.3" rotors with performance street pads (Axxis Ultimate or Hawk HP+) are easily enough for street use in a Honda, even "spirited driving" and the stickyest street tires. If you can find a way to fit wide tires (say 245 width) on a FWD Honda, then go ahead and run big rotors on the street, but that's much easier said than done, and 225 or less width puts you in danger of being called rice.

We're not talking about what is more economical.

Weston has been saying since like 1999 that bigger rotors are not advantageous. He's slowly coming around and almost saying that they will help you stop faster. Obviously no brakes are going to help you if you lock up the tires, thats a given.

Kinematics, keep your newb ass out of this one.

I never said that they couldn't be useful. I said that they are nothing but ricer bling when you see them on most street cars, and that's just as true today as it was years ago when I first said it. And as I pointed out earlier, they do work against you in most cases when used on the street.

As for Kinematics being a "newb"... he has far more competition experience than you, so the "newb" here is you.

...

3) weston made a comment about whether or not the car has 200+HP... well i wont know till next spring when i finally get it tuned, but it should be over double that on high boost... obviously thats probably gonna be too much power, but i can always turn the boost down.

...

That's certainly valid when used on a road course, just not the street.


You'll gain additional torque from a bigger rotor but no advantage in coefficient of friction. Coefficient of friction is determined by your pad.

:werd:

[Weston-work]

They will help a normal street pad stay effective because the larger rotor will disipate more heat.

True, but if your street pads are getting that hot on the street, then they're pretty crappy pads and/or your driving has gone beyond "spirited" into "reckless".

Plus with good pads you can beat the shit out of them at the track and not have to worry about fade as much.

You can do that with stock sized rotors too. The problem is that there's a wide variety of definitions on what a "good" pad is... a lot of people also seem to think that performance street pads are racing pads, which they definately are not. There's a big difference with real track pads, such as Hawk Blue and Cobalt Spec-B and higher; these are the kind of pads that you would not use on the street.

Larger rotors will enable performance street pads to perform better at the track, but there's no sense in upgrading to larger rotors for that reason, as it's silly to spend money on brakes for track use and not get real track pads. There's far more bang-for-the-buck, and performance potential, in the brake pads than there is the rotors.

[boostedEG]

so we have already discussed whether or not they are NEEDED, but i want to know how they would be bad on the street?

[Chris_V=|work|=]

so we have already discussed whether or not they are NEEDED, but i want to know how they would be bad on the street?

more rotating mass, look at F1 cars they use the smallest possible rotors. its kinda like your paying a grand to get a heavier flywheel or wheels.

[boostedEG]

more rotating mass, look at F1 cars they use the smallest possible rotors. its kinda like your paying a grand to get a heavier flywheel or wheels.

yeah but is the difference in weight even noticeable? i think someone mentioned above that both of their aftermarket calipers weighed less than one stock caliper. and im sure the rotor doesnt weigh that much more

and some people do pay for heavier flywheels, it all depends on the application..

[Kinematics]

Bigger rotors are heavier. Anyway, calipers are not rotating mass, they are unsprung weight, as is the rotor.. but since the rotor is rotating, it is rotational mass as well. Unsprung weight is all the weight on your vehicle that is not supported by your car's suspension. This means your wheels, tires, and your suspension and brake components.

The two piece rotors that come with most Wilwood kids are usually lighter, but it depends on how big you go, and how small your original rotors are.

Also, there is sometimes a benefit of a heavier flywheel, but there is never a benefit of more unsprung weight or rotational mass. A heavier flywheel can improve your drag launches, but every extra 10lbs of unsprung weight on your car is equivelent to 100lbs of sprung weight. Extra weight in this regard just slows your acceleration and hinders your braking as well as slows down your vehicle's agility.

So it is up to you to decide if running a larger brake kit is worth the extra weight for your increased braking performance. Either way, you are wasting your time if you don't do any heavy braking that your upgraded stock brake setup can't handle.

[myshtern]

Why did Honda bump the brake rotor size on the NSX from 12" to 13" recently?
They should have consulted weston first so he could tell them all about more road safety and pad properties.
Why does the BMW M3 have braker rotors that are over 12"?
Why does the Dodge Viper have 14" brake rotors?

Chris, you cant compare anything to F1. Their rotors are heat treated for 6 months and can withstand the fire in westons pants.

[Kinematics]

Why did Honda bump the brake rotor size on the NSX from 12" to 13" recently?
They should have consulted weston first so he could tell them all about more road safety and pad properties.
Why does the BMW M3 have braker rotors that are over 12"?
Why does the Dodge Viper have 14" brake rotors?

Chris, you cant compare anything to F1. Their rotors are heat treated for 6 months and can withstand the fire in westons pants.

You're a fucking idiot. Stop talking.

[stu]

Shouldn't I get larger brakes if I go from a 31" tire to a 35" tire?

[Skaterkid]

Why did Honda bump the brake rotor size on the NSX from 12" to 13" recently?
They should have consulted weston first so he could tell them all about more road safety and pad properties.
Why does the BMW M3 have braker rotors that are over 12"?
Why does the Dodge Viper have 14" brake rotors?

Chris, you cant compare anything to F1. Their rotors are heat treated for 6 months and can withstand the fire in westons pants.
Because car companies are vain too. Oversized brakes are in. Just like oversized wheels. You want to tell me that going from a 15" wheel to an 18 is better for acceleration or handling? And for the OP, he wants to Auto-X. By using some racing pads and getting them in their operating range with good tires he will be more competitive with that setup and smaller wheels than going up a size in wheels and brakes and adding the unsprung weight and rotational inertia that will hurt his accelleration out of corners and his handling. I thought about getting bigger brakes till I put some real good pads in my car and now I stop more than fast enough and consistent enough.

[riceburner700]

more rotating mass, look at F1 cars they use the smallest possible rotors. its kinda like your paying a grand to get a heavier flywheel or wheels.

i have a f1 car rotor sitting in my friends room and that thing is around 15" wide and about 1.5in thick

[Weston]

Why did Honda bump the brake rotor size on the NSX from 12" to 13" recently?
They should have consulted weston first so he could tell them all about more road safety and pad properties.
Why does the BMW M3 have braker rotors that are over 12"?
Why does the Dodge Viper have 14" brake rotors?

Chris, you cant compare anything to F1. Their rotors are heat treated for 6 months and can withstand the fire in westons pants.

1) Look at the weight of most of those cars... that's a lot more than a typical FWD Honda
2) Look at the tires they are putting on those cars... their stock width is often quite a bit wider than you can even fit on a FWD Honda.
3) Those are all real sports cars, and as such, they have a much higher probability of actually seeing a road course than a Civic, Kia, cardboard-box-on-wheels, etc.
4) All of those cars actually have torque, along with a good amount of HP

You're a fucking idiot. Stop talking.

:werd: But this isn't anything new... pick just about any subject and myshtern will pretend to be an expert on the matter and argue his completely ignorant opinion until the end of time.

[myshtern]

I really just cant believe that you guys think that bigger brakes wont help you stop faster.

I'm not saying that it wont be cheaper to just upgrade pads, but seriously meow, thats rediculous.

Weston, dont be so offended when we are just talking about cars, it's not your morals this time.
You guys seem to get so e-upset when we are just talking about cars.

[Weston]

so we have already discussed whether or not they are NEEDED, but i want to know how they would be bad on the street?

As I explained earlier, they will be bad because the wheels will lock up easier, and skidding reduces your traction by 30% (ABS isn't much better). To make the most of a car's braking performance, you need to apply as much brake pressure as you can without locking the wheels up. Threshold braking is keeping it on that fine line between maximum braking and wheel lock up. This is much harder to do when it takes less pedal pressure or movement to lock them up... it would be much more touchy than a car with appropriately sized brakes. And in a panic situation, most people are just going to slam the brake pedal, and big brakes will just serve to lock the wheels up sooner, resulting is worse actual braking performance.

There's also the issue of brake balance, especially on non-ABS cars, if you don't maintain the front to rear ratio when upgrading the brakes. Moving the brake balance more to the front will reduce overall braking performance because you are limited by the first tire that locks up, so the rear brakes will be doing less work when the oversized front brakes lock up. If you move the brake balance more to the rear, you get better overall braking, but it comes at the cost of the car's stability under braking. ABS will help keep things balanced to a point, but it's not going to do anything amazing.

[Weston]

I really just cant believe that you guys think that bigger brakes wont help you stop faster.

I'm not saying that it wont be cheaper to just upgrade pads, but seriously meow, thats rediculous.

Yeah, what do I know... I only have several years of actual experience with stuff like that. :rolleyes:

I have explained how this works several times now, so go back and read it. This isn't some Fast & Furious or Need for Speed Underground street ricer video game. Physics are quite a bit different in real life.

[Kinematics]

If you want bigger brakes for autocrossing... you're doing it all wrong. I hardly ever use my brakes for autocross, and if you are gong around the course right, you'd be doing the same.

Road racing however, is hard on brakes. Autocross should not.

[myshtern]

Yeah, what do I know... I only have several years of actual experience with stuff like that. :rolleyes:

I have explained how this works several times now, so go back and read it. This isn't some Fast & Furious or Need for Speed Underground street ricer video game. Physics are quite a bit different in real life.

Physics are against what you are arguing and its proven by you using larger rotors.

[fantasya98]

I see how weston is saying that pads is a more efficient upgrade, "bang for the buck" and that larger rotors are not necessarily needed. However, weston also stated that one can benefit from larger rotors.

mysthern simply states that larger rotors do help in braking.

thing is you guys basically agree on the subject just that weston feels they would not be his first choice for an upgrade, but heres the thing: weston, you talk about race pads and performance pads, but someone may not want to change out their pads each time they hit the tracks. Therefore having larger rotors and less aggressive pads may perform just as well as smaller rotors and more aggressive pads, but just cost more. Weston, if you inject your preference into your argument make it clear. Myshtern, if you choose to spend your time arguing over something, read it more clearly.

Interesting stuff, but like i said, you can prob. achieve similar results between a setup w/smaller rotors and more aggressive pads and larger rotors w/less aggressive pads.

[fantasya98]

and rotor size may not affect coefficient friction but im sure larger rotors plus larger calipers allow a greater force and surface area.

all 3 of which apply to braking.

[Skaterkid]

Have you ever taken a look at actual stop distances in car magazines? You know, where they use scientific tests? 99% of cars with big brake upgrades stop with distances longer than stock because of the ABS computers being thrown off or the front rear bias being crap.

Also, the OP wants to autox. If you think bigger brakes will help an autoxer, you're wrong. You want to run the smallest brake you can get away with in autox to keep unsprung weight and rotational inertia down.

Finally, there is a point of too big. You'll increase your wheel, rotor, and caliper size to the point where you're acceleration and cornering would be better with a smaller wheel/brake combination because you'd have less unsprung weight and less rotational inertia. The best thing to do is to move to a rotor design and caliper design that cools faster and a more aggressive pad than go bigger.

Will larger brakes give you better braking torque and more surface area? Yes. Is it the thing you want to do to stop better or more consistently? No, there are cheaper ways to stop better and from a performance view, oversized brakes are bad.

[boostedEG]

1) it has already been mentioned that some aftermarket calipers AND oversized rotors can be lighter than stock, but even if they are heavier im not too concerned about that unless its a huge increase in weight. like i said this is still a daily driver, it has full interior, i m working on putting the AC back on the car etc. etc. etc. i would be MUCH more worried about my 250lb ass than an extra 5-10lbs form rotors.

2) i plan to be using some very sticky tires, so lock up shouldnt be a huge problem.

3) i already have some heavy 18" wheels that will clear big brakes and im only changing them if i have to for tires (never seen any 18" drag radials). even then i would probably run 17"'s

so maybe im just ingorant, but it seems to me like all the reasons stated for them being bad dont apply to me all that much. i think its already been established that i dont NEED them, but its up in the air as to whether or not i could benefit from them. from what i have read i think i could benefit from them, but not as much as i originally thought, and because they are rather expensive i will probably just buy good pads for now and dump some money into the talon.

i dont know what kind of rotors i currently have, but i think they are powerslot slotted/drilled.... should i be throwing these away for some quality blanks?

maybe i'll try the setup weston has now, since it seems to be pretty cheap.

[boostedEG]

BTW how are the falken GRB FK451 tires? i thought they were pretty good, with a decent amount of traction, but i havent tried many other types of performance tires so i dont really have much to compare them to.

[Weston]

Physics are against what you are arguing and its proven by you using larger rotors.

No, it's not. You don't know WTF you are talking about, and you obviously fail to comprehend what myself and others have explained several times. There is a reason that brake pads and fluid come first on the list of things that a racer evaluates when he has a braking issue... larger rotors are near the bottom, and most find them unnecessary and even counter-productive. You're not even in a position to argue this, because you have no experience or real understanding.

My slightly larger than stock rotors do me no good on the street or at an autocross... they are only good on a road course, and only when I'm on R-compound tires and/or running a lot of full speed laps back-to-back. I used stock 10.3" rotors for several years and they worked quite well when I used an appropriate brake pad compound, even though I push the brakes extremely hard and am running about twice the stock HP and torque. This is also a car that ran low 1:17 laps at SCR, where most Hondas are much closer to 1:27. After several years, I eventually went to 11.1" rotors, mainly because I wanted more longetivity out of them, since I was planning to race this car in events where I'd be going full speed for 30-45 minutes straight. With race pads, the 10.3" rotors performed well in the braking zones, but would just start to fade after several full speed laps, especially when on R-compound tires. It was manageable, but I wanted a competitive edge on the track.

It doesn't do jack shit on the street, other than lock the tires up faster and make it harder to threshold brake. It's also more rotating mass, which is bad.


I see how weston is saying that pads is a more efficient upgrade, "bang for the buck" and that larger rotors are not necessarily needed. However, weston also stated that one can benefit from larger rotors.

mysthern simply states that larger rotors do help in braking.

thing is you guys basically agree on the subject just that weston feels they would not be his first choice for an upgrade, but heres the thing: weston, you talk about race pads and performance pads, but someone may not want to change out their pads each time they hit the tracks. Therefore having larger rotors and less aggressive pads may perform just as well as smaller rotors and more aggressive pads, but just cost more. Weston, if you inject your preference into your argument make it clear. Myshtern, if you choose to spend your time arguing over something, read it more clearly.

Interesting stuff, but like i said, you can prob. achieve similar results between a setup w/smaller rotors and more aggressive pads and larger rotors w/less aggressive pads.

Read what I said in this thread... there's no denying that they can benefit some people, but they are much more likely to do more harm than good on a street car. As for wanting to go to the track without changing pads, that is certainly one of the few intelligent arguments in favor of larger rotors in this thread, but that only applies to HPDE or open track days where nearly everyone can come out and screw around. When it comes to sanctioned competition, you'll find that the front runners, along with many others, use appropriate brake pads.

If you're going to spend money on brakes for track use, you might as well do it right and learn from the countless other racers before you... start with the pads and fluid. If that's not enough, add brake ducts if feasible. If that's still not enough, you're either braking more than you need to be, or you're running a lot of power and larger rotors may be worth considering. However, that is the race track only, not the street or autocross.

Simply put, larger rotors will not help a FWD Honda on the street or an autocross, unless you are running super wide tires, but good luck trying to fit 245 or wider tires on such a car. As for the road course, real racers have proven time and time again that pads and fluid are the most effective way to increase braking power and heat tolerance, and that bigger rotors are not always better. Just because it requires less pressure on the pedal, or the pedal feels firmer, does not mean you are actually stopping any better.

[Weston]

2) i plan to be using some very sticky tires, so lock up shouldnt be a huge problem.

On the stickiest of street tires, it's honestly not that big of an issue in dry conditions; it's just a little easier to be effective with the stock sized rotors on the street. But with average street tires or low traction conditions, it's a definate disadvantage, especially if your ABS doesn't like it (the Integra ABS works well, but others may not). And as mentioned, it is more weight, both rotating weight and unsprung weight.

I only made this compromise because it's benefit at the race track outweighed the disadvantages that came with it, for my specific situation and needs; my Integra also isn't street driven much, especially in wet or winter weather.

[Kinematics]

the Integra ABS works well

I lolled at this one. When I had my two GSRs, I hated it. Just interferes too much like my truck.. which is why I pulled the ABS fuses on all of them.

[Weston-work]

I lolled at this one. When I had my two GSRs, I hated it. Just interferes too much like my truck.. which is why I pulled the ABS fuses on all of them.

You still have to threshold brake to make it work, of course, but it has always worked well for me on the race track... keeps the car pretty well balanced and helps me be effective with threshold braking (other racers have even complimented me on that). It's probably not something that I would go to the trouble to add to a non-ABS car, but I found that I was able to use it to my benefit. I also really wasn't pleased with how it acted when I tried disabling ABS... it felt like it had too much front bias, somewhat like my old 1990 Prelude, but not like any of the other non-ABS cars I have driven.

If I were to seriously look at removing the ABS, I'd have to make that include a front/rear brake bias controller, because it needed to be tuned with even the stock rotors and equal pads on all 4 corners, so it would certianly need it for larger rotors and different front/rear pad compounds.

[stu]

When are you guys going to answer my question?

[boostedEG]

When are you guys going to answer my question?

what kind af vehicle/axles?

i know when i was researching doing a lift on my ZR2 everyone recomended it as the s10 brakes are kinda small to begin with, and the super heavy tires dont help at all... and i dont think they make performance pads for most 4x4's so upgrading to bigger rotors could be your only option

[Weston-work]

Shouldn't I get larger brakes if I go from a 31" tire to a 35" tire?

Off-road mods for trucks are not really within the scope of this discussion, since you're talking about improving the brakes to compensate for increased rotating mass, rather than improving the brakes just to improve the braking performance over stock. Stronger brakes would help compensate for the increased rotating mass, and in your case, the increase in the brake rotor weight would be minor compared to the increase in the tires (since that weight it placed so far out from the axle). I'd still look at the pads first though. And of course, you'd have better stopping performance with stock sized tires and rotors.

[stu]

And of course, you'd have better stopping performance with stock sized tires and rotors.

Well sure, but you have larger tires for a reason, so it would make sense to upgrade the brakes to match the vehicle that you're building.

[Chris_V=|work|=]

stu, do you have a truck again?

[myshtern]

Dont you two live together?