GOOD place for tune on my hondata??

[b16SEDAN]

who tunes hondata? does any one know of a good tuner with hondata? i bought it for my daily driver and i need someone to tune it. thanks

[Nightfall]

You've been on this board for how long?

Tobi, for sure.

[Bedlam]

Tobi (TC's Performance) would be the ONLY person I'd even think about trusting my car too..kind of a no brainer. :)

[velocity]

that and he's the only retailer so take it to tobi he works wonders

[blackciv4]

Tobi (TC's Performance) would be the ONLY person I'd even think about trusting my car too..kind of a no brainer. :)

:werd: and :werd:

Tobi did an exelent job on mine and I would recommend him to anyone!

[Mark_H]

I concur with all above posts. Tobi did an incredible tune on my old ITR turbo with Hondata.
Mark

[Terry]

You've been on this board for how long?

Tobi, for sure.

:killtard:

[b16SEDAN]

Tobi (TC's Performance) would be the ONLY person I'd even think about trusting my car too..kind of a no brainer. :)

i have heard alot about tobi, any way to call him?i have been on this board for awhile but never paid any attention to hondata tuners, never thought i would run it. any way to call him? or can tobi pm me? or whats his screen name? thanks for the advice

[ryanman]

Honda Ghandi

www.tcperf.com

[boostedEG]

import sports does it for almost half the price.

[servion]

Which hondata system do you have?

[nicklk]

import sports does it for almost half the price.

Half the experiance too????http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/dunno.gif

[boostedEG]

Half the experiance too????http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/dunno.gif

and why would you say that?

[Martian]

and why would you say that?
Because Tobi is the only authorized and trained Hondata installer/tuner in Denver

[Mark_H]

Because Tobi is the only authorized and trained Hondata installer/tuner in Denver

Word. Tobi made over 400whp on my Stock block, Stock rod ITR around 2 years ago when Hondata had barely been out very long.
M

[boostedEG]

Because Tobi is the only authorized and trained Hondata installer/tuner in Denver

well i may be wrong but i believe what you mean is, he is the only authorized "dealer" - as in seller, i have never heard of hondata having authorized tuners. but even if he was an authorized tuner does that mean he has way more experience than everyone else?

im not on here to bash tobi by any means he does great work, but B16sedan asked for recomendations on good hondata tuners, and thus i gave my suggestion... tobi is not the only good tuner.

also, sam, the guy who has won the SFWD races for the last few years (cept this year) works at import sports right? and i believe he does at least some of their tuning. i would say if he has been winning the races for the last few years he has to have some idea of what he is doing.

Word. Tobi made over 400whp on my Stock block, Stock rod ITR around 2 years ago when Hondata had barely been out very long.
M

true, and i believe he was the one that tuned pangs stock LS to around 390HP, im just saying its not like he is the only person that is able to do that.

[Martian]

I take that back, there is someone from clubrsx.com too. But it doesn't say who it is. But those are the only 2 for the whole state.

[boostedEG]

I take that back, there is someone from clubrsx.com too. But it doesn't say who it is. But those are the only 2 for the whole state.

yeah but like i mentioned above... what your sayig is, he is one of 2 authorized dealers. although i dont disagree with any statements made about his ability to tune, but being an authorized dealer has nothing to do with tuning abilities.

if i was the only authorized dealer of sex jelly and rubbers would that make me the best fuck in town?

[Martian]

yeah but like i mentioned above... what your sayig is, he is one of 2 authorized dealers. although i dont disagree with any statements made about his ability to tune, but being an authorized dealer has nothing to do with tuning abilities.

if i was the only authorized dealer of sex jelly and rubbers would that make me the best fuck in town?
Okay, if you want more detail here it is. Tobi has gone through every class Hondata offers for there products. He is one of a small few nation wide that knows Hondata backwards and forwards. He is highly respected by Hondata, as you can see for yourself on their forums. As a dealer he is what they consider an authorized tuner. They prefer that non dealers do not tune their product.

There may be other options available for tuners. I guarantee, his is the best, and well worth the money spent. I would much rather not be reffered to a "might be good" tuner, when there is a "most certainly" good tuner with much documented background and results. I understand your point in there are other options, I do however think that tuning any car should not be taken lightly.
Get it done right the first time and save yourself money in the long run is my opinion. Just like anything else, you get what you pay for.

[Weston]

If you want it done right, go to Tobi. If you want to be cheap, you might as well just do it yourself. Simple as that.

[ComputerJLT]

I can tune hondata for a quarter what tobi would. I've tuned a few cars around town and no one has nothing but good things to say.

[forum]

I can tune hondata for a quarter what tobi would. I've tuned a few cars around town and no one has nothing but good things to say.

Obviously you are brilliant, you haven't even mastered the English language. I'm sure you have a great grasp of everything that Hondata can do and how to use it properly.

[kevino002]

Sam is a great tuner, and BTW, he owns Import Sports. I have had both of them tune my car when it was on Hondata, and both did a great job at doing it. Its all up to the person looking for a good tuner. You have been given the choices now its up to you to do some research and decide witch is best for you. And I would not count out Jeremy (Servion) best tuner in Colorado if you ask me, not to take anything away from anyone else....... IMAO

[Weston]

... and no one has nothing but good things to say.

Umm... so, in other words, every one of them has some sort of a complaint? :rofl:

[Pang]

well i may be wrong but i believe what you mean is, he is the only authorized "dealer" - as in seller, i have never heard of hondata having authorized tuners. but even if he was an authorized tuner does that mean he has way more experience than everyone else?

im not on here to bash tobi by any means he does great work, but B16sedan asked for recomendations on good hondata tuners, and thus i gave my suggestion... tobi is not the only good tuner.

also, sam, the guy who has won the SFWD races for the last few years (cept this year) works at import sports right? and i believe he does at least some of their tuning. i would say if he has been winning the races for the last few years he has to have some idea of what he is doing.



true, and i believe he was the one that tuned pangs stock LS to around 390HP, im just saying its not like he is the only person that is able to do that.

Tobi did a great job tuning my hondata to about 350ish. Then I picked up my own hardware/software and cranked out almost 390 then parted with everything.

So much competition!

[b16SEDAN]

thanks to everyone your input helped alot. cool i will get a hold of tobi

[b16SEDAN]

Which hondata system do you have?

s200

[boostedEG]

I would not count out Jeremy (Servion) best tuner in Colorado if you ask me

+1
i would agree with that. i just didnt know if he did S200 tuning.


BTW, computerJLT tuned my car with crome pro and i had absolutely no complaints. i have recently switched to AEM just for some of the extra benefits/options it offers, but if i can get the tuning software for it i would have no problem letting him tune the AEM as well.

[boostedEG]

[QUOTE=Martian;614104]
There may be other options available for tuners. I guarantee, his is the best, and well worth the money spent. I would much rather not be reffered to a "might be good" tuner, when there is a "most certainly" good tuner with much documented background and results. I understand your point in there are other options, I do however think that tuning any car should not be taken lightly.
QUOTE]

A) i think it might be a matter of opinion that his is the best... reason i say that is A LOT of the dyno sheets i have seen from cars he has tuned have been what i consider to be low HP numbers, and i assume its just cause he is being very conservative, and doesnt want to blow the motor, which to MANY people could be very very important, especially those boosting on stock motors, or those just looking for a mild performance increase on their daily drivers and dont wont to sacrifice reliability. i on the other hand did not spend thousands of dollars on my motor to get the same HP numbers i could have gotten from a stock LS. i would rather have my motor be pushed close to the limits as long as it will last a 'decent' amount of time.

B) i dont think any of the tuners mentioned would be considered "might be good tuner", they all have a lot of documented background and results. personally from what i have read on this site over the last year or two i thinkg jeremy has the best record, and thats because he has been able to pull the most HP, and stay very reliable.

[ComputerJLT]

Umm... so, in other words, every one of them has some sort of a complaint? :rofl:


That post was made in a hurry I didnt reread it; I had my roomate talking to me and was posting while he gabb'd; i'm sure no one here has ever made a mistake like that.

Anyway ask boostedeg, ask mrsatisfiher, ask aZnRaCeRx1989 ask my roomate (daboosted93) I've tuned all their cars plus some more, they're all running fine; running just as good as if they would have paid some shop 4x more to do the same thing I did.

[HONDA GHANDI]

LOL, this thread cracks me up. The "best" tuner really is a matter of opinion. What most of you dont realize is that I do this for a living and have for over 15 years. I own my own dyno, I tune anywhere from 1-10 cars a week. I have installed and tuned over 300 Hondatas in the past 6 years. I was with hondata back in the 1b,2b,4b days. There are other hondata dealers in the state, and about 10 people last time I checked that have the ability to tune them. But to be listed on the website you HAVE to prove that you know what you are doing to the owner of Hondata, and be a hondata dealer.

And to you boostedEG, just because you have seen some dyno sheets that have low numbers does not mean that is all that could be had from those cars. Most people come into my store with a budget for tuning and I do the best that I am capable of in the amount of time that I have. I am not in the habit of selling someone a tune that makes 500whp on the dyno but wont hold together from day to day. I tune the car for what the customer asks for, in the time allowed, for the best overall power/reliability. The final HP number at the top of the page really doesnt concern me as a tuner. Its nice to see but it is merely a trophy for the owner of the car. If you want those high numbers you need to go to someplace with a dynojet anyway.

[Slava]

Its all about what you want. Tobi has tuned a lot of cars and there are a lot of very happy people. Jeremy has done a lot of cars and every one loves his work. I personally will have Jeremy tune my set up because is a good friend. I will take my car to Tobi for any issue that I can't fix because I know he has a lot of expreince with honda.

[floored4door]

Honestly I could care less about what that top number is, I think that its equally as important to have a partial tune on a load bearing dyno. I sure as hell know that I don't sit there and redline my car in every gear, and I'm sure that a lot of people on here don't drive their cars like that either. Tobi has a load bearing dyno and Jeremy also tunes on a load bearing dyno in the springs. I think its just a matter of time until people realize that partial tune is just as important as that full pull....

[HONDA GHANDI]

werd, now that I have tasted the sweet sweet juice of the load bearing dyno tune I will never go back to a dynojet WOT tune.

[Bedlam]

Damn..I forgot to put on my firesuit before I walked into this thread. Me, I've known Tobi for a while, back when he was working at a Honda dealership and the whole import tuning business was just starting to really take off. You can certainly spend your money wherever you want, but I'll go ahead and stick with TC's. Now..if we could figure out a way to hook up Audi up to the dyno...hrmmm.. ;)

[Conrad]

I can pee farther then tobi and jeremy.... what now???? Hey jeremy did i see you leaving in your white hatch following a red hatch late late late Sat night from GW???

[ComputerJLT]

Its kinda pointless asking a question like that then giving an answer to it on this board. It's pretty much owned and operated by TC so of course its full of all TC's little pay to play soldiers that are hoo-ray tc > everyone. I'm not going to badmouth them because honestly i've not seen what they can or cannot do but outside these boards people are not singing TCs praises as loudly...

[Martian]

H.A.I. is in no way owned or operated by TC Performance, FYI. Tobi pays to be a sponsor of this site, so get the facts straight before slinging insults. If you want to earn respect, quit dogging him and pay Brian to be a sponsor.

[doogie06]

Well, seeing how this board is "pretty much owned and operated by TC," and we are all "pay and play soldiers." Don't you think you should think about your actions before snapping off at the mouth like you just did? At no point did anyone criticize anybody until you got your two cents in. No one is doubting anyone's tuning ability, I'm sure they all have their strengths and their weaknesses. Now, just because no one jumped on board with your "I'll do it for a quarter of what a shop will charge" slogan doesn't mean that you have to spout off at the mouth about another shop or people on here. Tobi does some amazing work at that shop, and it just so happens that many of the people on here have had work done by him.

[sbiggi]

You guys relize that it is not hard to tune a car on a load bearing dyno right?

You hold rpm and load and tune each cell to maximum torque on race gas.
On pump you tune till max trq or knock and back it off a degree or two for safety.

Its not rocket science. I would take my car to anyone who I felt could follow that simple procedure for tuning.... or I would most likely do it my self using their dyno.

[Martian]

You guys relize that it is not hard to tune a car on a load bearing dyno right?

You hold rpm and load and tune each cell to maximum torque on race gas.
On pump you tune till max trq or knock and back it off a degree or two for safety.

Its not rocket science. I would take my car to anyone who I felt could follow that simple procedure for tuning.... or I would most likely do it my self using their dyno.
Seth makes a good point. but..... heres what I told him in chat and it holds true outside of chat.


[Martian] 2:41 pm: Also well put Seth
[2fastNturn] 2:41 pm: I speak the truth
[Martian] 2:41 pm: I think these guys that are
coming onto HAI and advertising their business
should be paying Brian
[The Lounge]: Loud_Scott has left at 2:41 pm
[2fastNturn] 2:42 pm: yes, they should be
[Martian] 2:42 pm: Thats what gets me upset the
most
[Martian] 2:42 pm: These guys complain about
Tobi yet he's the only paying sponsor

[ComputerJLT]

You guys relize that it is not hard to tune a car on a load bearing dyno right?

You hold rpm and load and tune each cell to maximum torque on race gas.
On pump you tune till max trq or knock and back it off a degree or two for safety.

Its not rocket science. I would take my car to anyone who I felt could follow that simple procedure for tuning.... or I would most likely do it my self using their dyno.


This guy speaks the truth. If you get a tune by me i'll be the first to tell you tuning is not that hard; you sit there feel for what the engine wants from the EMS and you give it to it, you dont really tune a motor to do what you want you tune the motor to give it what it wants. It will tell you "hey i need this much air at this rpm and this amount of load" (manifold pressure on speed-density systems, AFM readings on MAF cars) and you set that cell or cells in the maps accordingly. Only thing you can really play around with is ignition timing and thats one of those things where you can literally listen to the motor, here were knock vs. load vs. timing comes in and set that back a few degrees for a margain of saftey. It REALLY helps to have a dyno to tune ignition timing because you can set a motor at a constant load and tune each cell or a set of cells and interopolate. Though 90% of the same effect can be done on the street with a microphone, earphones and watching the data coming from the EMS while driving.

And as far as tobi owning and operating this place, he is the sole sponsor. I've talked to at least one well known local guy here in denver that WANTED to be a sponsor but the board owners never got back to him. I dont see any other shop's with their own subforum... Also before anyone starts bitching about me advertising i'm not. I dont have a business yet and i'm not out to steal anyone elses. I'm just an enthusiest who hates to see fellow enthusiests ripped off by performance shops (some shops not all, and some are better at one thing than they are something else).

[sbiggi]

Brain owns the site, not Tobi.

[Weston-work]

Tobi doesn't own or operate this board; he's a sponsor for it, and many people here know him and have done business with him. He has earned every bit of respect that he has, and that's why he's so successful. We've known him and have had great things to say about his work since long before he went into business for himself and sponsored this board. There are also plenty of people outside of this board who have done business with him and are very satisified. HAI just knows him the best, so that's why he has so many loyal customers here.

I can certainly respect someone who is trying to earn a name for themselves and is working for cheap in order to get business, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to stop recommending the guy who has already established an excellent reputation and charges a few bucks more.

[Martian]

And as far as tobi owning and operating this place, he is the sole sponsor. I've talked to at least one well known local guy here in denver that WANTED to be a sponsor but the board owners never got back to him. I dont see any other shop's with their own subforum...

Brian is not a difficult person to get ahold of or talk to, so a nice big BS Flag to you. People don't want to pay Brian for what they see as getting for free. Pay Brian to be a sponsor, or drop it.

[ComputerJLT]

Brian is not a difficult person to get ahold of or talk to, so a nice big BS Flag to you. People don't want to pay Brian for what they see as getting for free. Pay Brian to be a sponsor, or drop it.

I'm not going to name the guy that wanted to become a sponser but trust me he is VERY well known locally; I talked to him just recently. He says on two occasions he messaged Brain about a sponsorship and never recieved a reply.
Being the sole sponsor gives you a lot of pull on these boards, look at honda-tech and full race. Those guys are gods there and they're just another shop.

I'm stopping right here before this gets out of hand, my whole point was that you dont need to pay a shop a lot of money to tune a car then you guys twisted my words as a bash against tobi which is not true. I dont know the guy and only have a few opinions from the outside world to go off of. And like i said before this board is HEAVILY biased to pro-TC so of course anything said that isn't pro-TC will be flamed, just like has happened.

[Martian]

I can tune hondata for a quarter what tobi would. I've tuned a few cars around town and no one has nothing but good things to say.

That was the first thing you said. That somehow isn't a bash against Tobi?

Also you called myself and many others "Pay to Play". Well you should take notice here that if you want to play you need to pay, advertising isn't free. Tobi has never once insulted any other shop on this board. He's never dogged their prices either. Get a back bone and some integredy, go as far as Tobi has as a sponsor of this site.

[Dave_L]

Brain owns the site, not Tobi.


I never knew that Brain ran the site. :D
http://www.cfhf.net/lyrics/images/pinky.jpg

[doogie06]

Thank god you didn't post something about "the Brain".

[daBoosted93]

ah, but where would this world be with out competition?

[floored4door]

how was this not a bash to tobi and this board? you've deffinatly earned me as a customer... :rolleyes:

Its kinda pointless asking a question like that then giving an answer to it on this board. It's pretty much owned and operated by TC so of course its full of all TC's little pay to play soldiers that are hoo-ray tc > everyone.

[doogie06]

Peaceful, nontaxed, and enjoying life??

[ComputerJLT]

That was the first thing you said. That somehow isn't a bash against Tobi?

I just used tobi because thats what everyone was talking about, nothing personal. Put Servion's name in there, put any random shops name that does EFI tuning. Just like 2fastNturn said tuning is not a rocket science. In my opinion you dont need to pay a lot more for someone to tune your car but if you're not comfortable letting someone whos still gaining experience to tune then by all means dont hire them. If you want tobi to tune, then hire him. If you want servion then head on over to springs, want the honda-tech tuning god mase to come down? then mortage your house and pay him. I'm just here doing what I do

[Dave_L]

Next thing this guy is gonna say is that he owns an SRT-4. PSSSHHHHTTTT!

[sbiggi]

I never knew that Brain ran the site. :D
http://www.cfhf.net/lyrics/images/pinky.jpg

O he does, you are just out of the loop.

[M@]

Thank god you didn't post something about "the Brain".
See avatar.

I own and operate this bitch!

[Weston-work]

Let me take a moment to introduce Weston's "tuning" special... for just $5, I will disable your rev limiter and encourage you to rev to 16,000 RPM. And for an additional $5, I will unplug various engine sensors so that your car runs dangerously lean for maximum power. Naturally, I wont be anywhere to be found when your shit blows up, but my prices beat everyone's, and I bet Tobi wont even try to compete with these "services" that I'm offering...

[Dave_L]

Let me take a moment to introduce Weston's "tuning" special... for just $5, I will disable your rev limiter and encourage you to rev to 16,000 RPM. And for an additional $5, I will unplug various engine sensors so that your car runs dangerously lean for maximum power. Naturally, I wont be anywhere to be found when your shit blows up, but my prices beat everyone's, and I bet Tobi wont even try to compete with these "services" that I'm offering...

Can you go any cheaper?

[doogie06]

Pm'd

[Weston-work]

Can you go any cheaper?

Yes... if you let me video-tape your attempt to rev to 16K RPM, I will do it for half price. :D

[M@]

Pm'd
+1 and free bump for Wookie Performance.

[Dave_L]

Its not the tuning that will blow up your engine...its the massive hairball that will get sucked up your intake from the wookie.

[M@]

Its not the tuning that will blow up your engine...its the massive hairball that will get sucked up your intake from the wookie.
Correction, that's MY turbo that sucks up everything...

[Martian]

Correction, that's ME that sucks up everything...
Fixed

[M@]

Matt, please photoshop a picture of me sucking off all the guys from HAI chat.
Fixed.

[Weston-work]

:rofl:

Wookie Performance is also offering it's patented "M16" weight-reduction service... in a matter of seconds, we can put 30 5.56mm lightweight holes in any body panel or part that you wish to lighten. Due to the current price of ammo... err, I mean "performance holes"... the cost of this service has risen to $10.

[doogie06]

speed holes FTW!

[HONDA GHANDI]

I didnt start this business to get rich off of so called "pay to play" people. ( I call them customers) I got into this business because I love what I do to the point where I will put every penny I make back into making my business a sucess. What I do is not about fame, being a god, or even getting rich. I provide a service, a service that some people find value in. Of course I want to get everyone's business. Its not realistic but I do what I can to make my customers happy so they will tell their friends and family. I have been in this business long enough to see at least 5 "tuner" shops come and go. I watched them carefully and have learned from their mistakes as well as my own. The difference is that I have been in love with cars my entire life and it was only natural that I own my own shop. Most of the shops that have closed their doors is because they had lots of flash and promises but failed to commit to quality service and excellence in their work. My number one goal as a person, a business owner, tuner or mechanic is top quality. And with anything, you get what you pay for.

[doogie06]

Well, listen here Mr. Honda Ghandi, you don't know what you are talking about, Tobi is a Saint, a Saint I tell you!

[HONDA GHANDI]

I eat peices of shit like him for breakfast.

[M@]

You eat pieces of shit for breakfast?

[MrsGhandi]

dammit postwhorus maximus....you beat me to it!!

[M@]

YAAAAAAAAAY! That means I get a free Hondata S300, right?!?!

[velocity]

rofl dont you have to clean the floor for a week with your mouth for that?

[M@]

^ shhhh.... maybe she forgot...

[Mark_H]

Wow, this thread went crazy. Just to echo my own statements as well as everybody elses...Tobi is the ONLY person that has EVER touched any of my cars performance wise. His prices are more then fair, the service is TOP NOTCH, the quality is above average and also the time in which he finishes jobs is incredible. He had my motor pulled out of my car, block bored and honed, new pistons on my stock rods and reinstalled along with reinstalling my complete turbo kit in a matter of a few days. The price and speed of that particular service was unheard of around here.
Anyway, just had to throw a few more cents in here.:)
Mark

[MrsGhandi]

I remember M@....it's in my sig.

[M@]

:(

[boostedEG]

jebus... what have i started....

anyways to tobi, maybe im wrong but its sounds like you took a little offense to my statement about low dyno #'s, if so that was not my intent. like i said i figured you were being conservative, and not running the motors to their limits. and customers budgets of course come into play too. i was merely stating that even if 90% of the people on this board want that kind of a tune, i personally want my motor pushed to the limits.


to all the people saying that computerJLT bashed tobi by offereing to tune cars for cheaper.... well thats called price bidding, or competition... not insulting.

[ComputerJLT]

Just FYI i'm going to tune b16Sedan's car tomorrow

[velocity]

Just FYI i'm going to tune b16Sedan's car tomorrow

http://www.lafferty.ca/stuff/images/misc/cookie_desktop.jpg

[Deceptakhan]

Ahhh, I only post here because I believe that boostedEG is a good person. Awesome guy. As far as computerJLT, i never met him or pmed or anything, so i can't reply to that.

As far as getting my car tuned, there are only 2 people I would have do that; Jeremy or Tobi. I have never met any of these guys in person, and they are not known for killer deals. What they ARE known for is great service, great experience and knowlegde, and...my goodness, the customer satisfaction. I can't count the amount of sigs with one of them in it, the amount of good things that people say about them. I have never, ever heard of someone getting their car tuned at this place and that person being disappointed. In fact, most think that it was above and beyond. ComputerJLT, I have never heard anything bad about yu either, and tuning may be what you say it is. Maybe these 2 guys are not god, but damn, obviousely the cars think they are, how many of Tobi's cars are dd's that'll stomp some unsuspecting sports cars, and run reliably, daily, with so much satisfaction. Its not the tune you pay for. Its the knowlegde, experience, passion, and all those hours these 2 guys spent behind a book studying this stuff, to be above and beyond what most are. Best of luck to your tuning and business computerJLT. But for my money, I'll gladly pay 4 times more for the tuning with the aforementioned guys, after reading all this, I'd be a fool not to. Tobi, Barb and Servion, keep it up!

[Martian]

Just FYI i'm going to tune b16Sedan's car tomorrow
:biggthump I'm happy for you.

[ryanman]

what a bunch of fuckin whiners in here, jeez, get laid and STFU

[HONDA GHANDI]

jebus... what have i started....

anyways to tobi, maybe im wrong but its sounds like you took a little offense to my statement about low dyno #'s, if so that was not my intent. like i said i figured you were being conservative, and not running the motors to their limits. and customers budgets of course come into play too. i was merely stating that even if 90% of the people on this board want that kind of a tune, i personally want my motor pushed to the limits.


to all the people saying that computerJLT bashed tobi by offereing to tune cars for cheaper.... well thats called price bidding, or competition... not insulting.


I didnt take offense. Just stating th facts so that your thoughts dont create opinions. The dyno sheets listed on this website are representative of about 10% of the cars that I have tuned in my lifetime. So saying that my numbers are low is really only covering the cars that YOU have seen. Plus everyone knows that different dynos have different reads, my new dyno reads slightly lower than the one I used primarily for the last 4 years. Justins Z makes 399 at the wheels on my dyno when in all reality we weren't expecting to see 360. If I took it over to a dynojet you could expect to see at least 20 more. So now you see how the final top end number doesnt mean anything? Its all about the tune, and how reliable, and driveable it is.

[Conrad]

+1

[boostedEG]

tobi do you tune AEM?

[Martian]

yes he does

[ComputerJLT]

tobi do you tune AEM?


I can tune AEM :p

BTW tuned b16sedan's car tonight. That thing is a beast

[b16SEDAN]

I can tune AEM :p

BTW tuned b16sedan's car tonight. That thing is a beast

lol FUCK YES. thanks for the tune, car is running great. i even got a free wideband o2....lol. thanks alot

[b16SEDAN]

I can tune AEM :p

BTW tuned b16sedan's car tonight. That thing is a beast

lol FUCK YES. thanks for the tune, car is running great. i even got a free wideband o2....lol. thanks alot:cheers:

[ComputerJLT]

haha bastard; just because dan crossthreaded it. How was the ride home? What did your bro say?

[HONDA GHANDI]

How much power did it make/gain?

[b16SEDAN]

haha bastard; just because dan crossthreaded it. How was the ride home? What did your bro say?

he was impressed. his car should be done within two weeks, and you will be tuning that too. we need to turn the boost cut up a little more. i hit it everytime in third gear.... 15psi

[ComputerJLT]

he was impressed. his car should be done within two weeks, and you will be tuning that too. we need to turn the boost cut up a little more. i hit it everytime in third gear.... 15psi

no dont turn it up; throw that deltacreep in the trash.

[Martian]

How much power did it make/gain?
Come on, out with it ComputerJLT. Inquiring minds want to know.

[floored4door]

I would like to know details on the set up and numbers.

[daBoosted93]

you do know that you cant get numbers off of a street tune right?

[MrsGhandi]

Exactly the point....how do you really know if it's been tuned correctly if you don't have any figures to back it up?

[Weston]

you do know that you cant get numbers off of a street tune right?

:rofl: I was under the impression that this was at least being done on a dyno. There's no way to tune your ignition correctly on the street. The best you can do is tune the fuel for a specific A/F ratio, and that's only if you have a wideband installed on the car.

[b16SEDAN]

i have wideband, and my car runs great. thats all i need!

[fusionsport]

They always run best right before they blow....

[M@]

They always run best right before they blow....
True that! Happened to Terry, and happened to me (on my old motor).

[boostedEG]

Exactly the point....how do you really know if it's been tuned correctly if you don't have any figures to back it up?

other than HP/TQ what figures does a dyno normally give you? he uses a wideband to get the AFR's right, and just plays it safe with the timing.

i agree that dyno tunes are better, but i disagree with the suggestion that it cant be tuned right without a dyno.

[12seccivy]

other than HP/TQ what figures does a dyno normally give you? he uses a wideband to get the AFR's right, and just plays it safe with the timing.

i agree that dyno tunes are better, but i disagree with the suggestion that it cant be tuned right without a dyno.
It can be done street tuned,but can you do it in an hour,maybe 2?
It takes several attempts at the street tune and could take several weeks to do it that way. I've now done both and dyno testing is really the only effective way to tune and KNOW if you are safe..
I give props to Tobi for doing things the right way..I've known Tobi about 6 years now and he's always done things the right way.

[Weston]

other than HP/TQ what figures does a dyno normally give you? he uses a wideband to get the AFR's right, and just plays it safe with the timing.

i agree that dyno tunes are better, but i disagree with the suggestion that it cant be tuned right without a dyno.

There's more to tuning timing than just blindly making "safe" guesses, or advancing it until it knocks and then backing it off a degree. It's entirely possible to have timing that is hurting your engine but isn't quite far enough advanced to knock. You start a with the timing at a slightly low guess and advance it until it makes peak power... that is the point of maximum safe ignition advance on that fuel. As you advance it passed that, the power will go back down because it's fighting against the compression stroke, and then if you keep advancing it more, it will be so bad that you can hear it knocking. Higher octane fuel only likes more ignition advance because it burns slower, so it takes more advance before it fights the compression stroke. That's just what I know... I'm sure Tobi knows a hell of a lot more.

On the street, you can only tune for a target A/F ratio and try to make sure that you don't have so much timing that it knocks. You can't properly tune timing, and you can't see where you could get a little more power by making slight changes. Not to mention that trying to fix individual cells that are giving you a little hiccup or other problems can be quite tedious and frustrating with street tuning.

[ComputerJLT]

You don't HAVE to dyno tune to get the same results. You CAN tune timing on the street it's just not so cut and dry easy. Hell it's not even that hard just takes 3 or 4 more pulls compared to a few minutes on a dyno playing with load vs. rpm vs. advance. To tune timing on the street you basically hit the gas after getting AFRs straightened up and listen for knock, if you hear it back off timing (a trained ear can pick up knock in many different ways, i've heard plenty of it). Usually you have a point where you make the most power and any more timing after that won't make power and then you'll start knocking if you keep adding. After tuning enough cars I have a decent idea where timing should be on a boosted B and B16sedan's is sitting in the safe zone.
With a dyno you can put load on the motor and tune one cell or a set of cells on the fuel/spark maps without having to hit it a few times like you would on the street. On the street you're always moving and situations are always changing so it's nearly impossible to keep a steady load on a motor to tune one cell or a set of cells. You just have to hit those spots a few times. Again tuning is not rocket science fuel or spark. Fuel you set AFR, spark you listen for knock if you hear it back off. Maybe pull the plugs and look for signs of detonation.
The timing maps we were using were very conservative, i dont remember off the top of my head what the advance was at boost but i know there is a lot of room left.

I used to have a mic, back in texas that bolted to the block that had an amp so I could listen to the motor. It broke and I left it but It helped tremendously listening for knock. I need to build another one.


And if you REALLY want to get technical the load a dynomometer puts on a motor is MUCH less than you will see pulling hard down the highway in 4th/5th. Engines are more likely to knock under more load so if you're tuned on a dyno with less load and you go do a top speed run in 5th gear and your EMS isn't set to pull more timing in the higher gears then you have problems. There was a million page long discussion on this on honda-tech a while back, Mase the h-t tuning god even said the same thing and the consensus was that dyno tunes aren't any better than a good street tune except that it takes LESS time and it's safer than driving down the road. I'm not going to lie and say street tunes fix all the worlds problems, i'd much rather tune on a dyno because it's much more convinent, safer and you can see power numbers. It's just one of those things where a street tune will give you 99.999% of the the same result a dyno tune will do but it doesn't cost you anything to use the street, it does on a dyno.

Either way b16sedan is coming back tonight and we're fixing his boost creep issue (creeps from 8psi-14 when rpms climb in vtak y0), going to get rid of the delta-creep gate and hope that ebay manifold flows decent enough with a good gate to loose the creep or at least creep less. If you're all so scared of timing we'll go do a pull and kill it and i'll pull the plugs and take pictures.

Finally I don't have numbers, my ass dyno hasn't been calibrated in a while though I'd love to put it on one but thats up to b16sedan.

[ComputerJLT]

and you can't see where you could get a little more power by making slight changes.


Not to mention that trying to fix individual cells that are giving you a little hiccup or other problems can be quite tedious and frustrating with street tuning.

You're talking like 10-20hp here on a ~ 300-320whp setup. there are a billion varriables that could swing that much power.

You'll notice where hiccups are. If you have a hiccup somewhere and it's not related to a mechanical problem you'll either see a spike or dip in the map. I've never seen a hiccup that required a dip or spike in the map to fix. Just like fuel maps you get a feel of how they should look; where they should be fat and where they should be lean. The motor will let you know what it wants, FUEL AND TIMING.

[Weston]

If you have a hiccup somewhere and it's not related to a mechanical problem you'll either see a spike or dip in the map. I've never seen a hiccup that required a dip or spike in the map to fix.

Uhh... It's entirely normal for there to be little dips and spikes in both timing and fuel at specific RPMs. You can see this in most, if not all, stock Honda programs.

[ComputerJLT]

Uhh... It's entirely normal for there to be little dips and spikes in both timing and fuel at specific RPMs. You can see this in most, if not all, stock Honda programs.

not huge dips and spikes, they'll be gradual easy flowing; nothing sharp.

[servion]

I planned on pretty much staying out of this thread to avoid a shitstorm of "he's better NO he's better NO he's better", etc. but I have to take this one.

To properly tune timing, there is absolutely NO way to do it on the street, period. There is a HUGE and common misconception that the proper timing for a car to run is as much advance as possible before knock, and that is just plain untrue in all conditions but one: if you are knock limited.

Here's how it works: say you start with aa conservative ignition map for a given load at WOT and you make a pull. Got your torque curve, check. Typically as you add more timing (if the ignition was not at the proper advance to begin with) you will notice that torque gains as ignition advance increases. However, as long as you have enough octane to run the setup properly, you will start to notice that your torque gains will taper off... and then you will actually start to LOSE torque, all without knocking. I have seen it many times on a dyno. The exception to this situation is if you are knock limited, meaning that the fuel does not have the required octane to allow you to reach the proper ignition timing before knocking. In this case, the proper course of action is to get better fuel/turn down the boost/etc. so that you are not so close to that threshold.

So, if you run as much ignition advance as possible before knocking, you put yourself into a bad situation for multiple reasons:
1) You're losing power
2) You're putting more stress on your motor
3) You are running the timing so close to the knock threshold that any small change can cause knock. Bad tank of gas, hot summer day, really high IAT's, etc.

There is no way to tell if you're knock limited or if your torque is falling off wihout a dyno, plain and simple. I have personally tuned cars that have wanted extremely different amoutns of timing for seemingly similar setups. Off the top of my head, I remember one car that wanted the equivalent of 1.25 degrees of retard per psi of boost. Another setup wanted the equivalent of 0.25 degrees of retard per psi. Both similar turbo hondas. That equates to a big difference in ignition timing when getting into the bigger boost pressures. Also, ignition timing will vary with load AND rpm, so you are not getting everything possible out of your car unless you can run potentially different fuel and ignition values base on load AND RPM.

Additionaly, as you start to tune cars with more power you will find that you need traction to properly tune a vehicle. If the tires are spinning on the street, you cannot make changes to a fuel/ignition map... you're just not getting good data. With more powerful cars, you can't hook on the street for a full pass without being at extreme rates of speed, and even then some cars cannot hook. I tuned a honda in New Jersey that could spin the tires in 5th gear. My personal car (with a quaife and drag radials) can spin the tires from a roll-on in 4th gear. Even if it was possible to tune ignition timing on the street, I would not want to be going 150+MPH for each pass to do it.

The ONLY possible way for anyone to tune the ignition timing on a car properly without a dyno is using some sort of cylinder pressure sensing technology, and there is nothing commercially available in any sort of price range that will allow it to be done by an average hobbyist.

If you have a load bearing dyno (like what both Tobi and I use), then you can put as much load on the car as you want. You can put way more load on the car with a good dyno than the street will ever provide. The Dyno Dynamics dyno that I tune on (which aslso happens to be the same dyno which Mase just recently purchased) has twin retarders on the rear bed... this means that this car can physically load back 2800HP. You can't dream of doing that on the street.

Dyno tuning is not about numbers, its about changes. This is is one of many reasons why tuning is a perfect case of "you get what you pay for". Without paying for dyno time on a good, accurate, repeatable dyno, with your car being tuned by someone with the knowledge and experience to use it right, you're not getting a proper tune, plain and simple.

You don't HAVE to dyno tune to get the same results. You CAN tune timing on the street it's just not so cut and dry easy. Hell it's not even that hard just takes 3 or 4 more pulls compared to a few minutes on a dyno playing with load vs. rpm vs. advance. To tune timing on the street you basically hit the gas after getting AFRs straightened up and listen for knock, if you hear it back off timing (a trained ear can pick up knock in many different ways, i've heard plenty of it). Usually you have a point where you make the most power and any more timing after that won't make power and then you'll start knocking if you keep adding. After tuning enough cars I have a decent idea where timing should be on a boosted B and B16sedan's is sitting in the safe zone.
With a dyno you can put load on the motor and tune one cell or a set of cells on the fuel/spark maps without having to hit it a few times like you would on the street. On the street you're always moving and situations are always changing so it's nearly impossible to keep a steady load on a motor to tune one cell or a set of cells. You just have to hit those spots a few times. Again tuning is not rocket science fuel or spark. Fuel you set AFR, spark you listen for knock if you hear it back off. Maybe pull the plugs and look for signs of detonation.
The timing maps we were using were very conservative, i dont remember off the top of my head what the advance was at boost but i know there is a lot of room left.

I used to have a mic, back in texas that bolted to the block that had an amp so I could listen to the motor. It broke and I left it but It helped tremendously listening for knock. I need to build another one.


And if you REALLY want to get technical the load a dynomometer puts on a motor is MUCH less than you will see pulling hard down the highway in 4th/5th. Engines are more likely to knock under more load so if you're tuned on a dyno with less load and you go do a top speed run in 5th gear and your EMS isn't set to pull more timing in the higher gears then you have problems. There was a million page long discussion on this on honda-tech a while back, Mase the h-t tuning god even said the same thing and the consensus was that dyno tunes aren't any better than a good street tune except that it takes LESS time and it's safer than driving down the road. I'm not going to lie and say street tunes fix all the worlds problems, i'd much rather tune on a dyno because it's much more convinent, safer and you can see power numbers. It's just one of those things where a street tune will give you 99.999% of the the same result a dyno tune will do but it doesn't cost you anything to use the street, it does on a dyno.

Either way b16sedan is coming back tonight and we're fixing his boost creep issue (creeps from 8psi-14 when rpms climb in vtak y0), going to get rid of the delta-creep gate and hope that ebay manifold flows decent enough with a good gate to loose the creep or at least creep less. If you're all so scared of timing we'll go do a pull and kill it and i'll pull the plugs and take pictures.

Finally I don't have numbers, my ass dyno hasn't been calibrated in a while though I'd love to put it on one but thats up to b16sedan.

[Weston-work]

I planned on pretty much staying out of this thread to avoid a shitstorm of "he's better NO he's better NO he's better", etc. but I have to take this one.

To properly tune timing, there is absolutely NO way to do it on the street, period. There is a HUGE and common misconception that the proper timing for a car to run is as much advance as possible before knock, and that is just plain untrue in all conditions but one: if you are knock limited.

Here's how it works: say you start with aa conservative ignition map for a given load at WOT and you make a pull. Got your torque curve, check. Typically as you add more timing (if the ignition was not at the proper advance to begin with) you will notice that torque gains as ignition advance increases. However, as long as you have enough octane to run the setup properly, you will start to notice that your torque gains will taper off... and then you will actually start to LOSE torque, all without knocking. I have seen it many times on a dyno. The exception to this situation is if you are knock limited, meaning that the fuel does not have the required octane to allow you to reach the proper ignition timing before knocking. In this case, the proper course of action is to get better fuel/turn down the boost/etc. so that you are not so close to that threshold.

So, if you run as much ignition advance as possible before knocking, you put yourself into a bad situation for multiple reasons:
1) You're losing power
2) You're putting more stress on your motor
3) You are running the timing so close to the knock threshold that any small change can cause knock. Bad tank of gas, hot summer day, really high IAT's, etc.

There is no way to tell if you're knock limited or if your torque is falling off wihout a dyno, plain and simple. I have personally tuned cars that have wanted extremely different amoutns of timing for seemingly similar setups. Off the top of my head, I remember one car that wanted the equivalent of 1.25 degrees of retard per psi of boost. Another setup wanted the equivalent of 0.25 degrees of retard per psi. Both similar turbo hondas. That equates to a big difference in ignition timing when getting into the bigger boost pressures. Also, ignition timing will vary with load AND rpm, so you are not getting everything possible out of your car unless you can run potentially different fuel and ignition values base on load AND RPM.

Additionaly, as you start to tune cars with more power you will find that you need traction to properly tune a vehicle. If the tires are spinning on the street, you cannot make changes to a fuel/ignition map... you're just not getting good data. With more powerful cars, you can't hook on the street for a full pass without being at extreme rates of speed, and even then some cars cannot hook. I tuned a honda in New Jersey that could spin the tires in 5th gear. My personal car (with a quaife and drag radials) can spin the tires from a roll-on in 4th gear. Even if it was possible to tune ignition timing on the street, I would not want to be going 150+MPH for each pass to do it.

The ONLY possible way for anyone to tune the ignition timing on a car properly without a dyno is using some sort of cylinder pressure sensing technology, and there is nothing commercially available in any sort of price range that will allow it to be done by an average hobbyist.

If you have a load bearing dyno (like what both Tobi and I use), then you can put as much load on the car as you want. You can put way more load on the car with a good dyno than the street will ever provide. The Dyno Dynamics dyno that I tune on (which aslso happens to be the same dyno which Mase just recently purchased) has twin retarders on the rear bed... this means that this car can physically load back 2800HP. You can't dream of doing that on the street.

Dyno tuning is not about numbers, its about changes. This is is one of many reasons why tuning is a perfect case of "you get what you pay for". Without paying for dyno time on a good, accurate, repeatable dyno, with your car being tuned by someone with the knowledge and experience to use it right, you're not getting a proper tune, plain and simple.

:werd:

[taikahn]

<- 2 or 3 street sessions and 2 dyno sessions tuned all by Tobi and now very happy with it. Drives great after the last session, I would recommend Tobi for tuning anytime. But like has been said before, you get what you pay for, it takes more then an hour on a dyno.

*for what its worth, earlier in the thread people saying just pay Brian to become a sponsor. I've tried, no answers to my PMs, even multiple ones. I figure the public should know its not always that easy, I wish it was - but politics are at work here on HAI. As with my site and other sites as well, sometimes having multiple sponsors and vendors can create problems.

Tai
CorSport

[ryanman]

:werd: to Servion

[fusionsport]

I was going to stay out of this too, BUT, (SHOCKER) I agree 100% with Jeremy- unbelievable I know. However, hes right and JLT your wrong, and thats that. Back in the day we tuned on the street, and you can adjust an AFC or something like that kinda sorta ok on the street, but there is no fucking way to correctly tune a car on the street. This is one of the reasons I feel Al from Dynoflash and others like him are doing a HUGE disservice to the tuning community by insisting they can tune as good or better on the street as opposed to using a dyno. Its better alright, for THIER wallet. They( and I mean any "tuner" who says they can tune on the street for power- period) know they wont sell nearly as many tunes on the dyno as they will on the street, and they dont have to pay any dyno charges or require the customer to do so. So they get to do say, 10 "street tunes" in a day vs 3 or 4 proper dyno tunes, and they pocket a nice profit. Yes, I know you guys monitor knock and datalog and have a good time looking like you know wtf your doing, but the reality is that you dont, or you wouldnt be tuning a car on the street. I am not trying to piss anyone off, but dancing around the issues throwing out BS is a waste of bandwidth. Yes, I have street tuned, back in the day we had a Bosch CO analyzer we could strap into the Porsches and dial the MFI(thats MECHANICAL fuel injection) in a bit, and we had knock ears(useless in an air-cooled engine) etc, but even back then we knew there was a better way. Yes, you can kinda sorta get a fuel curve and a timing curve, but you are much more likely to NOT know if your close to the edge or way safe, and there is positively NO WAY for you to figure it out o the street. Load bearing dynos are ideal(have been preaching this for years) and even a dynojet has its uses.
A word about selecting tuners, since it seems there is some confusion on how to do so. It doesnt matter if you have jeremy, tobi, myself, or any one of several others in the area tune your car- in truth I doubt seriously one is any "better" than the other. Our jobs are multifold, and getting power out of a car is but a very small part of the equation.Your job as a customer is to provide accurate information about your setup, understand what we tell you about what we are or are not doing, ask questions if you dont, and pay the bill. Any tuner that says he hasnt blown an engine or hurt something is lying out his ass, period. There is a "safe" way to approach things,do a concientous and thorough job, and stand behind their "work" and AFAIK the following people/shops follow this: Tobi, Jeremy, Harvey, Sam Park,myself, and one or two others less well known. Thats it, period. No need to point out other shops/tuners, because I am aware of them and they arent on the fucking listI dont care if "they did a great job on so&so's STI, EVO, whatever, they dont make the short list. IMHO Tobi is the optimum choice to tune any Honda, nothing specifically against Jeremy, I just have much more faith in Tobi. I also find it funny as fuck that other "tuners" are critical of other tuners maps- I personally think its funny when someone, especially laymen or armchair tuners criticize what a professional tuner has done or setup in a car.
This only shows idiocy, and if you run into it find another tuner- fast. As an Example- I recently downloaded a tune from a MK4 Supra done by MAC. It is at best a very very amatuer effort.Nothing wrong with it exactly, just not what I would professionaly consider "right". I KNOW of at least one armchiar warrior that would blast the tune and post it all over the web completely out of context to show what a bad job had been done. Notice NONE of the people on my list have done that sort of thing.
The other key to picking a "good tuner" is to get over the idea that engine last forever. If you choose to modify a car, add or up boost, run race gas, or otherwise lean on a car, its going to fucking break. Period, end of list. Even on a "perfect" tune if you are leaning on a motor the least little thing- bad battery, bad fuel, headstuds lift, sparkplug failure, etc, and you are picking up pieces of your cherished motor. If you cant live with this, find a new hobby. Failures frequently get blamed on the tuner, engine builder, etc without any failure analysis being done. I recently heard an Audi 5-cyl I tuned on AEM might be hurt- because the owner changed back to the OEM sparkplugs- would that then be my fault? The engine builders fault? Hmmm?
It IS IMO the tuners fault if they do stupid shit, like street tuning for power, timing, or AFR, try to tune on race gas without asking if the customer is going to run pump( or just assume they will- damned cheap asses), etc.

Bottom line- anyone can tune a car, its how they go about it that should make your decision.

BTW Fuck you Jeremy for making points I agree with you on.

[ryanman]

BTW Fuck you Jeremy for making points I agree with you on.

:rofl: :rofl:

and a HUGE :werd: to the rest of your post

[Terry]

I can't read

[ComputerJLT]

I planned on pretty much staying out of this thread to avoid a shitstorm of "he's better NO he's better NO he's better", etc. but I have to take this one.

To properly tune timing, there is absolutely NO way to do it on the street, period. There is a HUGE and common misconception that the proper timing for a car to run is as much advance as possible before knock, and that is just plain untrue in all conditions but one: if you are knock limited.

Here's how it works: say you start with aa conservative ignition map for a given load at WOT and you make a pull. Got your torque curve, check. Typically as you add more timing (if the ignition was not at the proper advance to begin with) you will notice that torque gains as ignition advance increases. However, as long as you have enough octane to run the setup properly, you will start to notice that your torque gains will taper off... and then you will actually start to LOSE torque, all without knocking. I have seen it many times on a dyno. The exception to this situation is if you are knock limited, meaning that the fuel does not have the required octane to allow you to reach the proper ignition timing before knocking. In this case, the proper course of action is to get better fuel/turn down the boost/etc. so that you are not so close to that threshold.

So, if you run as much ignition advance as possible before knocking, you put yourself into a bad situation for multiple reasons:
1) You're losing power
2) You're putting more stress on your motor
3) You are running the timing so close to the knock threshold that any small change can cause knock. Bad tank of gas, hot summer day, really high IAT's, etc.

There is no way to tell if you're knock limited or if your torque is falling off wihout a dyno, plain and simple. I have personally tuned cars that have wanted extremely different amoutns of timing for seemingly similar setups. Off the top of my head, I remember one car that wanted the equivalent of 1.25 degrees of retard per psi of boost. Another setup wanted the equivalent of 0.25 degrees of retard per psi. Both similar turbo hondas. That equates to a big difference in ignition timing when getting into the bigger boost pressures. Also, ignition timing will vary with load AND rpm, so you are not getting everything possible out of your car unless you can run potentially different fuel and ignition values base on load AND RPM.

Additionaly, as you start to tune cars with more power you will find that you need traction to properly tune a vehicle. If the tires are spinning on the street, you cannot make changes to a fuel/ignition map... you're just not getting good data. With more powerful cars, you can't hook on the street for a full pass without being at extreme rates of speed, and even then some cars cannot hook. I tuned a honda in New Jersey that could spin the tires in 5th gear. My personal car (with a quaife and drag radials) can spin the tires from a roll-on in 4th gear. Even if it was possible to tune ignition timing on the street, I would not want to be going 150+MPH for each pass to do it.

The ONLY possible way for anyone to tune the ignition timing on a car properly without a dyno is using some sort of cylinder pressure sensing technology, and there is nothing commercially available in any sort of price range that will allow it to be done by an average hobbyist.

If you have a load bearing dyno (like what both Tobi and I use), then you can put as much load on the car as you want. You can put way more load on the car with a good dyno than the street will ever provide. The Dyno Dynamics dyno that I tune on (which aslso happens to be the same dyno which Mase just recently purchased) has twin retarders on the rear bed... this means that this car can physically load back 2800HP. You can't dream of doing that on the street.

Dyno tuning is not about numbers, its about changes. This is is one of many reasons why tuning is a perfect case of "you get what you pay for". Without paying for dyno time on a good, accurate, repeatable dyno, with your car being tuned by someone with the knowledge and experience to use it right, you're not getting a proper tune, plain and simple.


I'm not even going to read all you typed but i'm guessing you didnt read what I typed either. I said myself with timing you have a point right where you make peak power, you can advance more than that and will not gain power and you won't start knocking until you advance even farther. Let me make a diagram to illustrate what I just said:
|10°--------------------A------B---C-------D---30°|
at A ignition timing is considered safe at full boost at a good AFR, it won't make peak power but like i said it's safe and on a 300whp car you may have just lost 15hp over "ideal" timing, hardly enough to matter. B is where peak torque is and where you'd want to be (on pump gas). C is the point where you're still not knocking but your not gaining any power over B and D is just way too much advance it will knock and fuck your shit up. Given this is on pump gas and with race gas C and D would be a lot farther from B but still. You COULD get there if you were playing with it long enough on the street by watching afrs and listening for knock and using the built in "dyno" in some EMSs (measures time it takes to accelerate, has a few problems though, road must be the same each time and conditions can't change any so it's not that much help). I'm not even going to get into EGTs. So here is how I tune timing: I started off with a very conservative map, kept adding timing until i heard knock then I backed it off a bit. I have a decent idea of where timing should be at on a B16 headed boosted B and still make power without being too safe and without knocking. After tuning a few cars and after looking at countless basemaps on honda-tech and other boards for dyno tuned boosted B's I still feel I have a good idea where it should be. I even pulled the plugs on b16sedan's car after running it hard and saw no signs of knock. No spottied insulators no nothing.

I'm not trying to argue and say street tuning is better, it's not. but it gets you 99.99% of the same result as a dyno tune would but for much less. Why can you all not understand that? This isn't some 900whp SFWD car it's a stock internal'd Super60'd probably making ~ 300whp. We never even ran into any wheelspin problems doing WOT tuning in 3rd gear and crome is setup already to add more fuel and take out more timing in higher gears. Besides I really dont think this guy will be making any 200mph highway battle runs anytime soon. I UNDERSTAND that a dyno makes tuning timing much easier but seriously... on MOST setups a street tune will work JUST fine.

[fusionsport]

I'm not trying to argue and say street tuning is better, it's not. but it gets you 99.99% of the same result as a dyno tune would but for much less. Why can you all not understand that? This isn't some 900whp SFWD car it's a stock internal'd Super60'd probably making ~ 300whp. We never even ran into any wheelspin problems doing WOT tuning in 3rd gear and crome is setup already to add more fuel and take out more timing in higher gears. Besides I really dont think this guy will be making any 200mph highway battle runs anytime soon. I UNDERSTAND that a dyno makes tuning timing much easier but seriously... on MOST setups a street tune will work JUST fine



>>>>>>no- it doesnt- Look man i have talked to you and you seem cool and all, but you are wrong on this one- period. End of list. You, me, Otto Deisel himself cannot street tune a EFI car for fuel and timing and it be "99.9% the same as on a dyno". Period. No other answer. Wanna knwo my true opinion? Street tuning is a hacks way out- it lets them say, well we couldnt see XXX on the street, but we would have on the dyno" or "Man this feels a lot better than when we started, must be a BEAST" or any one of a hundred excuses/stories/wild fabrications. Dyno time is cheap compared to most motors, so why even bother tuning on the street? I also have a theory that "street tuners" like Al at dynoflash and yourself are afraid to go to the dyno, because your "tuning" would be exposed for all to see. I know for example one car Al tuned that "was the hardest pulling car of the bunch" flopped like hell on the dyno, I have made more power with a stock motor and AEM than he did with his flash, cams, injectors, and meth injection. Yet everyone raved how hard the car pulled. Straight BULLSHIT.

Street tuning does have its place for drivability AFTER dyno tuning, when it isnt convienent to get the car back on the dyno for a minor hiccup etc, but it has no place for actual tuning in the modern world when there are literally a half-dozen dynos within an hours drive.

[HONDA GHANDI]

Well, there it is. The difference is that I dont shoot for "good enough" for my customer's (or mine for that matter) cars. When they trust their car and hard earned cash to me I want to be able to tell them that the tune is the best tune in the time allotted.

15 hp on a 300 hp car is a huge amount. Thats 5%. People spend hundreds of dollars on parts for less than 5%. When the engine is making more power they spend thousands of dollars to get 5% Even 1%.

How would you know that the results are 99.99% the same if you dont measure before, after and quantify the results to the changes? You cant make that claim without raw proof that your tunes are as good or better than a car tuned with a load bearing dyno. When I used to tune on a dynojet
I would have to tune at WOT and take my best guess with the low throttle stuff and check it to datalogs taken on the street. But still when doing this I had a way to tell if my changes were correct. Now that I have a load bearing dyno of my own I can simulate several differnet scenarios that I could never do on the street and load the car far more than if it were done on the street. Trust me a 2500lb car will see far more load on my dyno than it ever would on the street unless it was towing a camper up to Vail. I have that ability.

[ComputerJLT]

>>>>>>no- it doesnt- Look man i have talked to you and you seem cool and all, but you are wrong on this one- period. End of list. You, me, Otto Deisel himself cannot street tune a EFI car for fuel and timing and it be "99.9% the same as on a dyno". Period. No other answer. Wanna knwo my true opinion? Street tuning is a hacks way out- it lets them say, well we couldnt see XXX on the street, but we would have on the dyno" or "Man this feels a lot better than when we started, must be a BEAST" or any one of a hundred excuses/stories/wild fabrications. Dyno time is cheap compared to most motors, so why even bother tuning on the street? I also have a theory that "street tuners" like Al at dynoflash and yourself are afraid to go to the dyno, because your "tuning" would be exposed for all to see. I know for example one car Al tuned that "was the hardest pulling car of the bunch" flopped like hell on the dyno, I have made more power with a stock motor and AEM than he did with his flash, cams, injectors, and meth injection. Yet everyone raved how hard the car pulled. Straight BULLSHIT.

Street tuning does have its place for drivability AFTER dyno tuning, when it isnt convienent to get the car back on the dyno for a minor hiccup etc, but it has no place for actual tuning in the modern world when there are literally a half-dozen dynos within an hours drive.

I'm not afraid of a dyno, give me a free run or two and we'll see who's right here. You or any of the shops on here, if you're so certain of yourselves and your expensive tunes prove me wrong!
Street tuning IS a cost effective way of tuning for 95% of all setups.

The motor is not knocking and it makes plenty of power end of story. As far as 15hp being a lot on a setup, you lose 15hp after an hour of driving when your intercooler is nice and toasty and your intake manifold is hot enough to grill on....

In the end it boils down to $120 for me to street tune (or dyno tune if the person being tuned wants to rent a dyno for an hour or two, doesn't matter to me) VS. $5-700 for some shop to do a dyno tune. Is the extra $500 worth it for maybe 15-20hp on a stock internal'd street setup? didn't think so.
Again for 95% of setups a street tune works JUST FINE.

[ryanman]

Some people will kill for that extra 10-20hp.

[ComputerJLT]

Some people will kill for that extra 10-20hp.

some people, not daily drivers...

You people are comparing apples to oranges here. On a street driven daily driver you loose that much from parts heating up when you drive from one side of denver to the other on the interstate .

A stock internal, low boost daily driver isn't going to need every ounce of power it can get... this setup is SAFE timing wise. It's running about 16° of advance at 11psi (15ish at altitude) which is WAY conservative. Most setup's i've seen on the net run 22-26 there on 94 octane and upwards of 28 on race fuel.

If this were a drag only; alcohol drinking race car THEN timing would matter but like servion said and common knowledge dictates at those power levels you just can't tune that on the street.

[ryanman]

I do and yes, on my daily drivers. I try to squeeze every ounce of power out of it I can as long as it's safe, 10-20hp IS a big deal to me.

[Weston-work]

I know for example one car Al tuned that "was the hardest pulling car of the bunch" flopped like hell on the dyno, I have made more power with a stock motor and AEM than he did with his flash, cams, injectors, and meth injection. Yet everyone raved how hard the car pulled. Straight BULLSHIT.

:werd: The problem with the butt dyno is that it mostly only notices the change in instantaneous G-forces, which is a nearly worthless measurement... A jerky powerband (ie sudden burst of power) is going to throw you back in the seat and "pull" a lot harder than a smooth powerband, even if they make the same peak horsepower and torque. The smoother powerband can more easily maintain traction, and is likely to be faster, but the rise in acceleration G-forces is gradual and is therefore harder to feel.

[fusionsport]

In the end it boils down to $120 for me to street tune (or dyno tune if the person being tuned wants to rent a dyno for an hour or two, doesn't matter to me) VS. $5-700 for some shop to do a dyno tune. Is the extra $500 worth it for maybe 15-20hp on a stock internal'd street setup? didn't think so.
Again for 95% of setups a street tune works JUST FINE.


No, no, no- and again- no. Street tuning is bad mmmkay? You can try and justify all you want, but the fact is that proper tuning on a dyno is MORE important for a "daily driven street car" than it is for a 900hp alcohol burning beast. If you truly knew anything about tuning you would know that tuning a high end race motor is easier than tuning a street car, because who the fuck cares if it idles funny, has constant-throttle hiccups, or dies on decel? No on cares because as long as the thing lays the power down, and we ALL know peak power is an easy thing to tune for, all is good. However, a street car has to idle, not die at lights, make good power on all sorts of shitty gas, not spit and sputter at part throttle and have a good economical cruise. No one gives a shit if a race car gets 4 mpg but you cant imagine the grief if a street car loses a single mpg! On a 900hp beast we have total control over the fuel we feed it, the sparkplugs it uses, and in most cases even the air(temp) it breathes. On a street car daily driver, as you yourself pointed out, you get to deal with hot as hell intake manifolds, etc that all cause changes in waht a "good tune" is.

True story: on the 911 GT3R's (Motec'ed)we ran straight Alpha-N mapping, because we basically only ran the motor under two conditions, accelerating, or decelerating, never at a constant throttle setting or at cruise. The rotating mass in the engine was so light that it was practically impossible to get the cars to idle cold, and even warm when coming through the pits the drivers had to rev the motors to keep the things going. No one minded and we won a fair number of races.
On the other hand, I had a customer with a S/C NSX on AEM, and when we made 411 whp he was happy as hell, until the car only got 19mpg, then I got to spend more quality time with the car getting the milage up to over 28.
Street cars are HARDER to deal with and tune than race cars, and if you dont know that by now( and your statements show that you might not) then you need to re-evaluate your tuning philosophy.

[boostedEG]

i just thought i would note that just about every motor mike has owned (stock or not) has blown up :) some his fault, some not. so when his motor blows, dont automatically blame the tune. the boost creeping up to 15 psi probably isnt a real good thing.

[boostedEG]

*for what its worth, earlier in the thread people saying just pay Brian to become a sponsor. I've tried, no answers to my PMs, even multiple ones. I figure the public should know its not always that easy, I wish it was - but politics are at work here on HAI. As with my site and other sites as well, sometimes having multiple sponsors and vendors can create problems.

Tai
CorSport


this isn't the first i've heard about this either.

[ComputerJLT]

Words

Well I guess all my successful street tunes so far I've just made up then...

/edit here are three long threads saying basically what i've said all along. Dyno tuning is great but there is nothing wrong with street tuning. A GOOD dyno tune should also includes some street tuning to have both full power max safety and good driveability. General consinsus is that tuning timing to the max has to be done on a load bearing dyno but you can get damn close with a street tune and when in doubt go conservative:
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1035896
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1060267
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1069143&page=1

[ryanman]

Well I guess all my successful street tunes so far I've just made up then...
I don't think he saying that they're not successful, just not 100% right and not the proper way to do it. Kinda what I gathered anyways.

[fusionsport]

^^^ what he said, and to re-iterate what has already been said, how do you KNOW they are successful? What numbers back up your tunes? How do you qualify your adjustments? Seat of the pants "feel" is useless, and afr and knock sensors only tell you so much. To me it sounds like a successful tune to you is one that doesnt blow up and "feels good". There is no way I could justify billing a customer for such a "tune", and I doubt any other tuner here would as well. Am I off base or is anyone else reading this the same way?

Post all the threads you want, hell I can post from Electramotives manual where they give instructions for street tuning- doesnt make it right, correct, or prefered.

[eg_project]

Ok, if you wanna get technical.

According to the freakin dictionary, a tune is "to adjust for precise functioning"

Street tune = adjusting to good running order, nothing wrong with it. Works fine.

Dyno tune = Tune for people hellbent on getting their cars to pull the last ounce of power out of them.

Both work, both make the car run better, both make your motor continue to run for longer than it would without it.

If you wanna pay more, pay more. If you wanna pay less, pay less. Do whatever the hell you want to do. If you want rediculously precise timing, get a dyno tune. If you want your car to run well and be happy with the big ass turbo you put on it for cheap, get a street tune.

It's not that fucking complicated. You can make it be, but it really isn't, it
s preference of the car's owner as to how they want to get their car tuned and how much money they wanna spend.

Ohh, and JLT knows his tunes are successful from the cars that have been running off of his tunes for however long it has been for the ones he has tune and there have been no issues with such tunes. He tuned my car and it works damn fine, no problems whatsoever from new motor to now something like 500 miles at least. I also know of several others that preach that he has done a good job on. His tunes make it so you can run your car untill you push too much boost into it and blow up your motor because of your own stupidity. If you want something for your DD get a street tune. If you want something for a racecar, get a dyno tune.

[HONDA GHANDI]

Dyno tune = Tune for people hellbent on getting their cars to pull the last ounce of power out of them.

Not true. 50-75% of an hour spent on my dyno tuning a new setup will be spent dialing in low end, idle, throttle transitions, part throttle, boost crossover points and decell. Like Fusionsport said, the WOT part is the easy part. It can usually be done in 15-20 minutes.

Most of my tunes are in the 1-2 hour range. Less than 1% of them go for more than 3 hours so I dont know where you get this $500-$700 number. Usually these types of tunes are reserved for very specific setups that have VERY expensive build costs. Wouldnt a $15k motor be worth a $500 session on the dyno? Its fairly obvious that you are just trying to argue the "value" of street tunes which I can understand. It has its place in this market. It just doesnt compare to the inherent value of having proven and qualified end results to the consumer. For every tuner that street tunes his car and has a little knowledge gained from the internet or books or whatever, there is a dozen people who have no clue how to tune themselves so they trust it to professionals. Selling this type of person a street tune and telling them that is is "good enough" is a disservice to the market, and to the customer. For an example that fits this conversation well: Yesterday I tuned a cusomers car, nothing special in the engine area but it is his baby that he works on constantly to make his own. NA setup, less than 150 whp. I gained 10 hp on the top and an average of over 6-7 from 1500rpm up. Now this was after the car had been loaded on the dyno for several minutes so it was plenty hot. Heat soaked and all, it will make more power than when it came in cold. Those are numbers that I can prove to him that I did something beneficial to his car. By looking at the wideband and listening for knock on the street would have told you this car was already tuned. There would have been nothing a street tune could have done for this car.

[fusionsport]

Agreed, most tunes I do are in the 1-2 hour range, and at 75/hour it costs the customer 150 bucks plus dyno time, the dyno I typically use is 65/hour, so a 2 hour tune cost in the 300 dollar range, minus fuel etc. So not sure where the 500 and up numbers are coming from- UNLESS of course we are talking about a dead startup on a full standalone that has to be tuned from scratch, then I have a set price of $800 bucks, doesnt matter how long it takes me and most of that time is spent on setup, idle, etc that are not done on the dyno, but in the shop. That might sound like a lot, but we arent talking about a DSM on AEM, more along the lines of a 911 or BMW on Motec or similar. At 800 bucks from dead car to driving on a good tune, its a bargain.

I have lost the sense of "value" for street tuning other than as mentioned above, for minor hiccups that can be seen and logged on the street when there is no time or it is impractical to get the car n a dyno. I do however try and solve any of these issues on the dyno before I finish tuning a car and give it back. There is absolutely no value in tuning on the street for power or timing, all it does is give a false sense of well-being. Telling a paying customer that street tuning is 99.9% as good as dyno tuning is a not helping the customer, at all. The best I can see telling a customer is that it is the best we can do until we get to the dyno- Example- I recently tuned a MK3 Supra, from startup to dyno. We got the car started on the AEM, no big deal, then worked with the map to get the car to at least drive around. We drove the car around the block twice to get an idea of the afr's and then we drove it to the dyno the next morning. Thats the extent of street tuning in my mind.

[Deceptakhan]

Thanks guys. This is a really good learning thread here.

[crxrocks]

How about a throw down here? Let's see JLT do a street tune and then throw it on the dyno and see how much more hp can be gained and how many changes are made to the fuel and timing map.

Better yet, use a car which JLT has previously tuned and is already out on the street. I would throw some money in to a pot to pay Tobi or Jeremy for some dyno time for that.

BTW> I have had Tobi tune one my setups and he did a great job. I think we gained about 25hp from start to finish.

Chris

[boostedEG]

a long as time ago tobi had quoted me 3-4 hours to tune a new hondata S300 system... that equates to about $450-600 just for the tune.... i'd say that puts you pretty close to that $500-700 range listed above....

on another note, i think most/all of us agree that a dyno is needed to get max HP, and precisely dial in the timing, but do we also agree that as long as the timing is at a safe conservative # a street tune will still be safe for a motor?

here's an example with my car....

it is an on going project and i am continuosly changing/upgrading things. i have had my car tuned about 5-6 times by computerJLT in the last 4-6 months. changes that required re-tuning were injector sizes, turbo sizes, boost levels, etc. etc. etc.

now had i gone through tobi, who seems to have average hourly rates that would add up to about...

3 hours for 1st tune, 1.5 hours for each consecutive tune (x4)

thats 9 hours of tuning which is roughly $1350... and that could be higher if tuning took longer.

i have spent under $400 total with computerJLT, including the crome EMS (and yes i know its free to download anyways, but still) to get my car on the road, as it is my daily driver, and i couldn't just park it while i saved up enough cash to do all the mods at once.

now that my setup is just about where i want it i will DEFINATELY be going in for dyno tuning, but do you guys really think he did me a disservice? i certainly dont think so. i am very happy with the work he did for me. but i do agree that it is now time for dyno tuning. and there is a possibility that computerJLT will be doing that for me aswell, i dont know yet i am still shopping around with tuners.

[Weston]

but outside these boards people are not singing TCs praises as loudly...

I was reminded of what you said when I came across this... http://www.team-integra.net/sections/local/forum/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=101&TopicID=186480&PagePosition=1&state=CO

[eg_project]

including the crome EMS (and yes i know its free to download anyways, but still)

Actually, It costs money for the version that actually allows you to tune.
.
Ohh, and I have a car tuned by JLT, somone prove him wrong

[Nightfall]

Ohh, and I have a car tuned by JLT, somone prove him wrong

There is no need for anybody to prove anybody anything here. Tobi has years of experience has gone through many classes and is who I trust my car to. End of story.

I'm not trying to dog JLT either. I respect the beginning of the path he is on.

[ryanman]

.
Ohh, and I have a car tuned by JLT, somone prove him wrong

Read the thread, it's been proven for the most part.

[Weston]

Read the thread, it's been proven for the most part.

:werd:

[eg_project]

Not really. If you wanna think of it that way, then do.

To be honest, I really don't care about all of this. He tuned my car and did a damn good job. I'm satisfied with it. I spent way the hell less than I would have elsewhere and to me, that's a lot better. And it's not like I have a motor and a turbo, right now he tuned it NA and will probably tune it turbo'd. The power gain I would get from a dyno tune to me is insignificant compared to cost. Personally the cost vs. power ratio with a street tune is much better that a dyno tune. If I get the money, I may get a dyno tune just because I'm so damn curious to see what numbers I will have and it get's me the numbers and the tune.

[ryanman]

I do think of it like that because it's the truth. I can also tune cars/bikes and know the ins and outs of it, don't have to tell me anything. Only reason I didn't respond first in this thread regarding why he was wrong was because I'm too fucking lazy to type it all out and I knew someone else would do it. I didn't really even want to type this much. I have also tuned quite a few cars on the street, highway actually, and had very good results with them but I'm not gonna say it's right.

[M@]

Actually, It costs money for the version that actually allows you to tune.
.
Ohh, and I have a car tuned by JLT, somone prove him wrong
Bzzzzzt. Wrong. You can tune with Crome free just fine. Use Freelog for datalogging + Crome free, and you're all set.

[ComputerJLT]

Read the thread, it's been proven for the most part.

I have? When did this happen.

I dont remember getting any dyno time. all thats happened in this thread is shops trying to save face and convince people that them charing tons of money is justified.

I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me they'll let me use their dyno so they can prove me wrong and discredit everything i've said... so far i've got nothing and something tells me i wont get anything

[Martian]

How about you spend the money to prove your right?
Quit being a cheap ass. You everything for free.

[ComputerJLT]

How about you spend the money to prove your right?
Quit being a cheap ass. You everything for free.


I everything for free eh?

I'm not the one bitching about how bad street tunes are. In fact i've had more people pm me in response to me tuning their car FROM this thread than ever before. Thanks bitchy shop guys for giving me your business.

But like i've said. I'd be more than happy for someone to prove me wrong, dyno one of the cars i've tuned; show the world how BAD they run.

[Weston]

all thats happened in this thread is shops trying to save face and convince people that them charing tons of money is justified.

No, more like you keep trying to justify the half-assed street tunes that you sell to people who don't know any better, while several people who clearly know what they are talking about have explained why it's half-assed at best. Your refusal to admit that doesn't make it any less true. You're obviously very arrogant and unwilling to learn because you think you already know it all, but you clearly don't, and that causes you to feel threatened quite easily. You attacked Tobi and other dyno-tuners when they had done nothing to even provoke you... hell, you were attacking him and blatantly trying to take customers from him before he even posted in this thread. He has shown you far more respect and professionalism than you deserve or have shown to him.

If your work is so great, then why do you have to resort to deceit and bitter personal attacks against your competition?

[Weston]

I'm not the one bitching about how bad street tunes are.

Of course not, because you're still making your futile attempt to trick people into thinking that your cheap half-assed tune is even comparable to a dyno tune. :rolleyes:

In fact i've had more people pm me in response to me tuning their car FROM this thread than ever before. Thanks bitchy shop guys for giving me your business.

Well, you're certainly full of yourself. Nobody is losing business to you. If somebody is willing to be that cheap and half-assed when it comes to their tune, then they really weren't going to actually go to the reputable tuners anyway.

But like i've said. I'd be more than happy for someone to prove me wrong, dyno one of the cars i've tuned; show the world how BAD they run.

What's the point? All that dynoing it would prove is that the car runs. If you want a real competition, dyno it with your tune, then see what a reputable dyno-tuner can get out of it. Of course, we already know that outcome of that, so it's not really worth anyone's time. By your own admission in this thread, you can't get all the power out of the cars you tune, and you think that 30 whp is no big deal on a 300 whp car. You obviously have no way to see power or reliability when tuning, so you can't tune for either... all you can do is say that it accelerates and doesn't knock loud enough to hear.

[ryanman]

Typical Texan..............

[fusionsport]

I see the point is still being missed- so I am going to make one last attempt at it.
Typically the ENTIRE reason for tuning is that the factory is conservative with timing etc when they program an ECU. Do the cars run well? of course they do, only a fool would say otherwise. However, most people want more, and turn to tuners to make it happen. Some tuners, like yourself, Al from Dynoflash, etc, advocate street tuning NOT based on results, but rather on how CHEAP you can do it for. This is, I feel, a disservice to people who pay you to do a job, because in reality there is no proof a job has in fact been done, other than purely subjective "seat of the pants" feel. As an example I will once again use Al the Evo master. This guy, like you, maintains he has tuned so many Evos that he knows what timing they need etc and can tune the car on the street just fine. The facts are however, that a car he tuned on the street, with cams, meth injection kit(one he recommends and recieves kickbacks from no doubt), boost controller maxing the stock turbo out(28psi falling to about 17), larger 02 housing, etc managed an ass-whooping 328whp. On a dyno, tuning with AEM and on a similar(03, with actually a weaker turbo) only mods being exhuast and intake, with boost controller set for a reasonable 24psi I made 330awhp hot, with much healthier torque. IF I had a decent DYNO tune on the heavier modified car I am certian I would have gained 20 or more peak hp and more power under the curve.
You(JLT) say that a street tune will get you 99.9% of the power a dyno tune will. I call Bullshit and say that any tuner will make more and safer power all throught the curve on the dyno than you will off the dyno.

But wait, theres more! He paid 600 bucks for that stret tune by the grand master. The Dyno customer paid... 300 bucks. Thats right- cheaper than a street tune.

The way I see it, a customer is paying not just for thier car to run, but for their setup to be optimized. Throwing in numbers that "you know work for a boosted b16" is no better than buying a pre-programned ecu off ebay, and it is NOT tuned for the individuals car or setup. As Jeremy noted above, two similar motors can require very different timing and fuel figures to safely optimize the individual setup.
I am going to give you another example. I just installed a beta unit AEM EMS in an EVO9. I got the car setup and idling, drove it around a bit to make sure it was "safe", not dying at lights or other BS like that, and let the customer have his car back- I didnt bill him for this, and wouldnt bill anyone for this sort of "rough tune". The car pulls fine, no knock, good AFR, and excellent turbo response. Now rest assured we will dyno the car on Thursday, and I expect gains over the factory "tune". By your standards, I should just quit now, charge the guy, and call it good. Is this the way we, as tuners, should do business? Would that pass for professional on ANY scale? What would be my answer if the owner came back in a month with a melted engine because of my "tune"?

You think I am posting this to "prevent" you from making money tuning cars. Wrong- I am posting this to prevent you from giving customers bad service. At least once a week I get in cars from other tuners and shops that are completely fucked up, mostly from ignorance.

[Weston]

:werd:

[Nightfall]

I just installed a beta unit AEM EMS in an EVO9. I got the car setup and idling, drove it around a bit to make sure it was "safe", not dying at lights or other BS like that, and let the customer have his car back- I didnt bill him for this, and wouldnt bill anyone for this sort of "rough tune". The car pulls fine, no knock, good AFR, and excellent turbo response. Now rest assured we will dyno the car on Thursday, and I expect gains over the factory "tune". By your standards, I should just quit now, charge the guy, and call it good. Is this the way we, as tuners, should do business? Would that pass for professional on ANY scale? What would be my answer if the owner came back in a month with a melted engine because of my "tune"?
/thread

[ComputerJLT]

So another guy wants me to tune his car :p thats three from this thread.

If ya'll keep up the bitching I may just tune all of denver

[Nightfall]

So another guy wants me to tune his car :p thats three from this thread.

If ya'll keep up the bitching I may just tune all of denver

Riiiiight. Three guys out of a metro area of a little under 3 million. You're on your way.

[M@]

Not to take sides here, or anything, but MAN... I could really go for a beer right now.

[Nightfall]

Not to take sides here, or anything, but MAN... I could really go for a beer right now.

Damn it! I'm at work. :(

[boostedEG]

I see the point is still being missed- so I am going to make one last attempt at it.

The way I see it, a customer is paying not just for thier car to run, but for their setup to be optimized.

for the right price i am sometimes willing to settle for less than optimized, as long as it is safe.... just like you had mentioned with a factory ecu.

like i said above i was continuously changing parts on my car requiring re-tuning if i wanted to keep driving it, and for the price he charged me i was very happy with the service, i know it wasn't optimized as the timing was set very conservative, but it was safe and allowed me to drive the car. a dyno tune would have been a waste of money in my situation. now that i am almost done changing things i will get a dyno tune as it will be worth my money.


street tunes can have their place. that is the only point i am trying to make.

i dont see any problem with him selling street tunes as long as he isnt making empty promises. which he never did with me. i knew the timing was being set conservatively to keep it safe, and of course that would cost me a few HP, but as long as it was safe to drive i was happy.

lastly, many people have said he is being un-professional, and doing a disservice to customers, basically saying he is ripping them off just by doing street tunes. i think i even heard the word hack awhile ago... well one guy had posted that he had his car street tuned twice by tobi (although it was later dyno tuned), and servion offers street tunes aswell, even though he strongly recomends a dyno tune. but the point is, some of the great, well respected tuners even do street tuning, does that make them hacks? nope.

no one here is trying to say that street tunes are better than a dyno tune, but as long as it is a safe tune, even if it doesnt make as much power i dont see what is so bad about it.

hell a street tune on just about any EMS is gonna be better than running a VAFC, and TONS of people do that.

[Weston]

Damn it! I'm at work. :(

We're allowed to drink in our department. :D



Ok, so it's just once a year, and we might not get to do it again because we got a little out of hand last year, but that's besides the point. ;)

[Weston]

So another guy wants me to tune his car :p thats three from this thread.

If ya'll keep up the bitching I may just tune all of denver

If you're trying to count the number of cheap asses on HAI, you have a long way to go...

[Nightfall]

We're allowed to drink in our department. :D



Ok, so it's just once a year, and we might not get to do it again because we got a little out of hand last year, but that's besides the point. ;)

I want to work in your building/department

This one sucks ;)

[ryanman]

If you're trying to count the number of cheap asses on HAI, you have a long way to go...

BWHAHAHAAHHA!!!!!! :rofl:

I can count the number of members here on HAI on both of my hands who don't mind spending the extra couple bucks on good shit, I'm one of them.

[fusionsport]

BoostedEg I understand what your saying, and we have all "tuned" on the street. However, you do not see Tobi, Jeremy, or myself making claims like "I can tune just as well as they can for cheaper", or A street tune is 99.9% as good as a dyno tune. If YOU, as the customer are happy with the job done for you and what you paid for it, then all is well. However, I personally feel that you would have been better served by a dyno tune, which would have resulted in quicker, more accurate tunes.

[b16SEDAN]

wow thats a lot of reading

[Terry]

readings for suckers

[HONDA GHANDI]

My "street" tunes are to correct driveability issues that could not be corrected or even duplicated on the dyno. I have never offered street tuning as a safe alternative to being on the dyno.

[Mark_H]

How about a "Tuning Challenge". The street tuning guy goes out and does a street tune on a car.(There