CCW the state and RKBA

[Jackrabbit]

I read this last night in Boston T. Party's book Molon Labe and thought it might appeal to some of you:

I would like you people to understand, "Your rights, you will not need them." Rights do not make you free; only by acting free can you become free....
But to fight for the establishment of rights or for the recognition of rights by one's government involves tacit subordination to the state... Thus, the passage of concealed carry permit laws in the United States is an admission that the right to keep and bear arms no longer exists in this country.
... The fundemental question is not what rights do I have, but why may anyone exercise coercive authority over me in the first place? It is coercion, not freedom, which must be justified. If coercion is not legitimate, there is no need for "rights". Arguing "rights" is arguing from an acknowledged and accepted subordinate-unfree-position.
So, your rights, you do not need them! They cannot and will not help you, because no government wishes to recognize them..., and it is fine with the state if you spend your life attempting to compel state to acknowledge and respect their existance. The question is whether you will act free or how you will use your freedom...
-Jeffery Snyder

[Street_Kings]

not quite sure i agree with this guy. sounds like a revolutionist/anarchist wannabe. The right to bear arms is indeed still intact, and i completely agree with requiring training and permiting to carry concealed. If we were to have society as a whole able to carry concealed "per their rights" it would create a shitstorm. Some people are fucking retarded enough as it is. Without our ccw system, not only would they be fucking retarded douchebags, but fucking retarded douchebags with guns.

[Weston-work]

not quite sure i agree with this guy. sounds like a revolutionist/anarchist wannabe. The right to bear arms is indeed still intact, and i completely agree with requiring training and permiting to carry concealed. If we were to have society as a whole able to carry concealed "per their rights" it would create a shitstorm. Some people are fucking retarded enough as it is. Without our ccw system, not only would they be fucking retarded douchebags, but fucking retarded douchebags with guns.

:werd: I somewhat agree with that guy, but as you said, the right to bear arms doesn't mean that every retard should be allowed to have one. I would strongly support a reasonable education/training requirement for people to even own firearms. Even if a person isn't going to carry it concealed, he needs to know how to handle it safely and respect the fact that it is a serious weapon. I'm strongly opposed to most gun control because it only punishes the honest people, and puts them at a disadvantage (criminals will still break the law and be well armed), but this is really more of a common sense issue.

[Jackrabbit]

But it's legal to open carry in Colorado without a permit. Has been for about a hundred years. I've yet to see any "shitstorm". Vermont has no laws regarding CCW. No shitstorm there either. People seem to think that the only thing that stops everyone from carrying a gun and shooting their neighbor is rule of law. Sure there are plenty of idiots out there, but they generally weed themselves out.
And we know criminals obey the law right?

Bottom line is this: If you ask for permission to exercise a right... it is no longer a right but a privilege. Privileges are eventually revoked. And now you got a nice little permit with your name and address, not to mention fingerprints... helping them revoke your "rights" whenever they deem necessary.

And I believe the man quoted would be better described as a libertarian than "anarchist/revolutionary wannabe".

I also realize there is a considerable distance between run of the mill gun owners and all out libertarians... so YMMV. :D

[Weston-work]

:werd: I agree.

[Street_Kings]

But it's legal to open carry in Colorado without a permit. Has been for about a hundred years. I've yet to see any "shitstorm". Vermont has no laws regarding CCW. No shitstorm there either. People seem to think that the only thing that stops everyone from carrying a gun and shooting their neighbor is rule of law. Sure there are plenty of idiots out there, but they generally weed themselves out.
And we know criminals obey the law right?

Bottom line is this: If you ask for permission to exercise a right... it is no longer a right but a privilege. Privileges are eventually revoked. And now you got a nice little permit with your name and address, not to mention fingerprints... helping them revoke your "rights" whenever they deem necessary.

And I believe the man quoted would be better described as a libertarian than "anarchist/revolutionary wannabe".

I also realize there is a considerable distance between run of the mill gun owners and all out libertarians... so YMMV. :D

Very good point, upon further thought of the quote, it does make sense, to a certain extent. The right to bear arms unchecked, however, is not one i can agree with.

Even in vermont, Felons and violent offenders are barred from owning firearms. The open carry point is slightly moot; I would almost certainly guarantee that if we had any sort of gathering, HAI meet, sonics cruise, whatever, and everyone was open carrying, most if not all of us would get to taste concrete and be given a new set of state provided bracelets.

The "shitstorm" I was referring to was if these checks and balances were not in place. If every gangbanger, drug dealer, car thief, murderer, rapist, jackass, whatever, were allowed to buy, own and carry firearms with zero checks and balances and legal reprecusions as per their "rights", that would be when things would go to shit, and I honestly don't think my views on that subject will ever change. Of course not everyone obeys the laws, but just because some people are willing to steal guns or accquire them through other illegal sources, we should let them walk into any sports shop, gun shop, or wal mart and buy them instead? The harder we can make it for the people that honestly should not have guns and have irrefutably proven that fact, the better IMO.

As per permitting, where's the issue with that? A gun is THE most deadly thing you can own as a civilian. You need to be taught to safely and responsibly drive a car and obtain a permit, why should a gun be any different? Last thing we need is joe commando with zero arms training or experience to pack concealed everywhere, unholster in a tense situation and with his complete and utter lack and knowledge of how to use the gun to create an even more dangerous situation since he cant shoot for shit and doesn't know WTH he's doing.

[Weston]

I would almost certainly guarantee that if we had any sort of gathering, HAI meet, sonics cruise, whatever, and everyone was open carrying, most if not all of us would get to taste concrete and be given a new set of state provided bracelets.

One time I showed up to a HAI meet and cruise with this (http://www.TurboLS.net/pics/AR-15%202.jpg). :D (obviously, it didn't leave the trunk of my car)

The "shitstorm" I was referring to was if these checks and balances were not in place. If every gangbanger, drug dealer, car thief, murderer, rapist, jackass, whatever, were allowed to buy, own and carry firearms with zero checks and balances and legal reprecusions as per their "rights", that would be when things would go to shit, and I honestly don't think my views on that subject will ever change. Of course not everyone obeys the laws, but just because some people are willing to steal guns or accquire them through other illegal sources, we should let them walk into any sports shop, gun shop, or wal mart and buy them instead? The harder we can make it for the people that honestly should not have guns and have irrefutably proven that fact, the better IMO.

I can definately agree that certain people have no place possessing firearms, but let's not forget that these people are criminals, so by their very definition, they do not follow laws, and they are going to get whatever firepower they want. If you want to stop that, you need to focus on the black market, not on what's being sold at gun shops and Walmart. These gun control laws keep reducing the ability of honest people to defend themselves, while having no real effect on the criminals and their black market.

Consider the case of the North Hollywood shootout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout)... The bank robbers had fully automatic AK's, a fully automatic M16, and a semi-auto HK-91... All of which were illegal under both Federal law (possession of a full auto firearm a felony, and the assault weapons ban was in effect at the time too) and California law. They also had 75 and 100 round drum magazines (illegal in California), and steel-core armor piercing bullets (normal 7.62x39 will pierce body armor, but steel-cored 7.62x39 is a step higher and is illegal federally). The LAPD was not pepared and could not penetrate their body armor, so they had to run to a gun shop and buy AR-15 assault rifles in order to take the robbers down. The gun shop was sued and put out of business because they did not require the LAPD to wait the mandatory 10 days per California law. The fact that they already had officers down, and were in the middle of a shoot-out with heavily armored gunmen who had fully automatic weapons, was apparently irrelevant. :rolleyes:

So, here we have a case where the criminals completely disregarded the law, as criminals always do, and they had no problem getting whatever they wanted off of the black market. Meanwhile, the honest people were at an extreme disadvantage and unable to protect innocent lives until they broke the law to do so, and a gun shop was put out of business for doing the right thing. Nowadays, Police SWAT teams from all across the country carry AR-15's to prevent this from happening again, but that wasn't the case back in 1998.

As per permitting, where's the issue with that? A gun is THE most deadly thing you can own as a civilian. You need to be taught to safely and responsibly drive a car and obtain a permit, why should a gun be any different? Last thing we need is joe commando with zero arms training or experience to pack concealed everywhere, unholster in a tense situation and with his complete and utter lack and knowledge of how to use the gun to create an even more dangerous situation since he cant shoot for shit and doesn't know WTH he's doing.

Education on the laws and safe handling of firearms should be mandatory for people to be able to even own them. However, the problem with that is that it makes it more of a privilege than a right, and is one step closer to disallowing firearms or blocking certain groups from having them.

[Deceptakhan]

I agree with you Weston. Its so ridiculously easy to get a guhn on the street, all these tough laws for a regular civilian would not harm a criminals ability to get a firearm. It would just be one more step to eliminating the gun problem as some people see it, guns. So as the famous saying goes; take guns away from law abiding citizens, and the only people that have guns will be criminals. Or something like that.

[Jackrabbit]

I'm also a bit of a hard core libertarian about crminals rights too. In the olden days, they handed you your gun when they released you from jail. You had served your sentence, the matter was considered closed.
If someone was too dangerous to have a gun, they were probably hanged to begin with. There was no BS "rehabilitation" like nowadays.

Now we create a criminal class, with people being denied their rights based on ARREST. Not even convictions! I hope everyone can see the possibity for abuse of something like that! Don't like someone, make a "felony arrest" then let him go. It now shows up on his background check for guns... not to mention that new job he's going to apply for! This happened to a friend of mine, and he had a lot of trouble trying to get it taken care of.

Also, if an 18 year old kid is convicted of a felony, stealing a car or something, does his time, pays his fines, grows up, 35 years old, is married and working like the rest of us... should he really lose his right to own a firearm? He still has a family to protect. He may even want to go hunting.

This is the problem with the current system... PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY! We like to try and stop people from what they "might" do. We also label things felonies that aren't violent or warrant the suspension of ones rights. If you're that terrible of a criminal, you shouldn't be on the streets... and if you're "rehabilitated" you should have a clean slate and ALL of your rights.

But then again, I'm sort of a nut about freedom and responsibility. ;)

[Deceptakhan]

Rehabilitation is bullshit. I was stupid a few years ago and got popped with a couple of felonies. Not sexual, not theft or drugs, but assualt. There is a fine line between misdemeanor and a felony; $499.99=misdemeanor, $500 and above = felony. I was charged with felonies because I got jumped, 2 on 1 fight, but ended up on top. Police only charge the winner, so 2 counts felony assault/menacing. I have lost my right to bear firearms, let me tell you, it sucks. Do I think I was charged harshly? Yes. But my deferred sentence will be up 2007, so I get my guns back. THINK about the consequences. It seems the state is trying to make everyone a criminal, when I can get busted for not wearing a seatbelt, what rights do I really have? Certaintly not the right to think for myself.