More record profits from oil companies

[Weston-work]

http://www.9news.com/acm_news.aspx?OSGNAME=KUSA&IKOBJECTID=b06be535-0abe-421a-00e4-cacf3307a9ed&TEMPLATEID=0c76dce6-ac1f-02d8-0047-c589c01ca7bf

Fucking greedy assholes... Time to stick it to them by making my car run off of E85 and water...

[JL LGT]

Remember back in the late 90's? When gas was well under a dollar!

There were people who complained then when it got too close to 1$!

[PePe240sx]

I need to start buying stock in those companies.

[Weston-work]

I remember back in the 80's when gas was under a dollar in Southern California. Now it's nearing $4 out there.

With premium at $3.19/gal and rising, assuming that E85 is at $1.99/gal and that I'll get 25% less MPG running on it, it's actually almost worth me driving 25 miles to Lakewood to fill up... of course, not all E85 stations are that cheap (some just keep it like 20 cents below the price of regular gas), and I don't know if the Lakewood station is or not.

I'm really tempted to build a hydrogen booster for my daily driver and see how well it really works... some people have reported a 50% or more increase in their gasoline mileage. The problem is just the whole explosion hazard, and finding a decent way to inject it into a fuel injected engine. I was thinking about doing it to the Integra since it has a wideband, standalone engine management, and an engine that I'm going to swap out anyway, but the fact that it's boosted presents a problem... A forced induction engine would seem to be harder since the intake manifold pressure would exceed the hydrogen gas pressure, so you basically get no benefit under boost, unless you find a way to pressurize the hydrogen gas (it would only need to exceed the boost level, so it wouldn't be much).

[monicle]

yet gas prices continue and will continue to climb. something needs to be done but nothing ever will.

[PePe240sx]

yet gas prices continue and will continue to climb. something needs to be done but nothing ever will.

And that is to drive less.

[Weston-work]

And that is to drive less.

The public transportation system still sucks too bad. We just need to find cheaper fuels, now that the oil companies are being a bunch of greedy bitches. There are plenty of cleaner and cheaper alternatives out there, but nobody cared when gas was cheap, so those technologies didn't really get developed. Everyone laughs when someone talks about running a car on water, but it actually is possible and has been done... if you bust H2O molecules (water) apart, you get H2 (hydrogen gas) and O (half a molecule of oxygen gas). That's what the hydrogen boosters do, but their method of electrolysis just doesn't produce it fast enough to keep up with the entire demand of the engine, so it's only able to reduce how much gasoline is needed. Some people have apparently found a more efficient way to do it, but it's a proprietary technology and you can't just build one of those yourself.

[PePe240sx]

Weston, are you referring to hydrocracking?

[chris_venturini]

hes talking about electrolysis, ive actually built an electrolysis machine before, cool stuff.

[DrJones]

Are they doing anything illegal to make these huge profits? I don't think so. Is it 'unfair'? I don't think so.

So what is the big problem?

Ohh no, a company is making money because people are paying more for the product they sell and consuming more of it!!

I pay more for gas, so what? If anything that just prevents me from spending money in other places on stuff I don't need.

They aren't obligated to give us the lowest gas prices they can just because it's something we use a lot of. They aer free to exist in the free market just like any other company. Should Microsoft be forced to release Windows Vista for $20 just because everyone uses it? Would it be "unfair" if Chipolte raised prices by $0.50 and showed more profit because of it?

Should Ferrari be obligated to start mass producing their vehicles so anyone can buy them for < $40k? No.

As long as people are willing to pay what they are asking, and we are still consuming, then we can't bitch about their profits.

Do I wish I were paying less for gas? Of course. Am I going to do anything about it? Probably not. I don't mind paying for it. If prices do get high enough to the point where I feel like it's not worth it, then I will stop using so much and start cutting down on fuel costs by taking other forms of transportation, or getting a more efficient car or something.

[Mario]

I agree with DrJones. I've severely limited my driving down. I now use the public transportation more than ever (Weston, if you lived within half an hour of the city you would see that the Denver RTD is actually really efficient and quick).

Considering most the people on this board are 4 cylinder cars, I don't see why they are bitching? If you have a V10 however and get 9MPG, I could see the slight inconvenience of paying $70-$80 to fill up every couple days.

Computer industry used to boom, now it's the oil. That's how this world works from one trend to the next.

[JL LGT]

Car-pool FTW!

If I still lived in my old apartment... I'd ride a bike to work!

[stu]

Thanks Dr. Jones, I didn't want to have to rehash the same god damned message again.

[Weston-work]

Are they doing anything illegal to make these huge profits? I don't think so. Is it 'unfair'? I don't think so.

So what is the big problem?

Ohh no, a company is making money because people are paying more for the product they sell and consuming more of it!!

So, what you're saying is... it's our own fault that we're so dependant on oil, and now we're paying the price? I call BS... nothing is our fault, ever! I could go flying by a cop at twice the speed limit and it wouldn't be my fault; it would be the cop's fault for catching me! ;)

Yes, I agree with you for the most part... this country let itself get into this position, and now we're all paying the price. There are just a couple of issues that I have with it... with all the mergers, there is far less competition, so it's much easier for them to keep their profits high without committing the crime of price fixing. Price fixing is illegal because it has this same effect; they just managed to make it happen without violating the law that's currently on the books. And then there is the whole moral issue of how their greed is hurting everyone else. I know that morals and big corporations don't usually mix, but they were doing pretty well for themselves when gasoline was reasonably priced, but they decided to see how far their greed could go and they screwed over a lot of people and the rest of the economy in the process. Yes, it's legal, and it's "just business", but that doesn't make it right or good. And I have a feeling that they have just brought about their own end, because now people are motivated to find ways to no longer need these oil companies. That's what I'll be doing...


I pay more for gas, so what? If anything that just prevents me from spending money in other places on stuff I don't need.

I hope you're kidding. Sure, it's an optimistic point of view and all, but it's also pretty naive and sheep-like, which are not things that I'd expect from you.

[Weston-work]

Thanks Dr. Jones, I didn't want to have to rehash the same god damned message again.

If you're going to involve God in this, you might want to consider things from the moral point of view. ;)

[stu]

Can't you use the same arguement and say that our (the consumer) greed for gasoline is what's hurting ourself? I think it's more greedy to want gasoline since it accomplishes on thing, than it is to want money, which accomplishes many. If you start the argument of which is the more necessary commodity (gas or money) in this (and every) society, money wins hands down. Aren't we being greedy by trying to starve the oil companies?

[Zach]

not when they are a large faceless corporation who is exploiting a weakness, or some may say an addiction.

[oldskoolracer]

i'll just have SERVion tune all my cars to run E85 it's so much cheaper in the long run fuck it

[stu]

Exploiting a weakness? Who's fault is it that people like gasoline? Not theirs. If you want to go about it that way, you might as well say that doctors and surgens are evil because they exploit people's addiction to life.

[robstamina]

Are they doing anything illegal to make these huge profits? I don't think so. Is it 'unfair'? I don't think so.

So what is the big problem?

Ohh no, a company is making money because people are paying more for the product they sell and consuming more of it!!

I pay more for gas, so what? If anything that just prevents me from spending money in other places on stuff I don't need.

They aren't obligated to give us the lowest gas prices they can just because it's something we use a lot of. They aer free to exist in the free market just like any other company. Should Microsoft be forced to release Windows Vista for $20 just because everyone uses it? Would it be "unfair" if Chipolte raised prices by $0.50 and showed more profit because of it?

Should Ferrari be obligated to start mass producing their vehicles so anyone can buy them for < $40k? No.

As long as people are willing to pay what they are asking, and we are still consuming, then we can't bitch about their profits.

Do I wish I were paying less for gas? Of course. Am I going to do anything about it? Probably not. I don't mind paying for it. If prices do get high enough to the point where I feel like it's not worth it, then I will stop using so much and start cutting down on fuel costs by taking other forms of transportation, or getting a more efficient car or something.

NONE of us really know the real story in regards to the government and the oil industry..I am all for free trade and consumerism etc. but using any excuse to jack up the price on oil is what seems on a small part of what's being done here imo(i.e. the gulf war/iraq war)..BTW who sets the pricing for oil here in America...hmmm

see "the smartest guys in the room"
it was about the Enron scandel and how the "energy crisis" and blackouts throughout CA were due to Enrons greed to increase $$ by shutting off the power out there and making a "need" for it..

the movie is a very good "wake up" call to how the worlds energy industry is basically a monopoly..

I am noticing some similarities to the current situation concerning oil prices and this movie..

[Weston-work]

Can't you use the same arguement and say that our (the consumer) greed for gasoline is what's hurting ourself? I think it's more greedy to want gasoline since it accomplishes on thing, than it is to want money, which accomplishes many. If you start the argument of which is the more necessary commodity (gas or money) in this (and every) society, money wins hands down. Aren't we being greedy by trying to starve the oil companies?

No, you can't. By your logic, consumers have a "greed" for food too. :rolleyes: The point I'm making is that you can take your cut and live quite well, and have everyone else still be reasonably happy, but when you try to increase your cut by a ridiculous amount, at the expense of everyone else, that's called greed. Sorry, I just have a moral problem with people who take more money than they could possibly ever spend, when they know it hurts millions of people who are, for the most part, just trying to survive. You can't tell me that's right. You can say that it's business or what most corporations do, but it will never be right.

Look at their profits... They aren't exactly starved, and they wouldn't be starved at $2/gal either... they profit either way, but they're trying to squeeze more money out of people because they know they have this whole country in an impossibile situation. If we woke up tomorrow and there were no gasoline, our economy would collapse. They know this and they're taking advantage of it. It's our own fault for putting all of our eggs in one basket like that, but that doesn't mean that it's not evil for them to exploit our weaknesses or addictions.

[Dave_L]

You better believe companies try to make the most money possible. It's how a company works. No company is gonna only gonna make 10% when they could make 20% doing the same thing.

[robstamina]

No, you can't. By your logic, consumers have a "greed" for food too. :rolleyes: The point I'm making is that you can take your cut and live quite well, and have everyone else still be reasonably happy, but when you try to increase your cut by a ridiculous amount, at the expense of everyone else, that's called greed. Sorry, I just have a moral problem with people who take more money than they could possibly ever spend, when they know it hurts millions of people who are, for the most part, just trying to survive. You can't tell me that's right. You can say that it's business or what most corporations do, but it will never be right.

Look at their profits... They aren't exactly starved, and they wouldn't be starved at $2/gal either... they profit either way, but they're trying to squeeze more money out of people because they know they have this whole country in an impossibile situation. If we woke up tomorrow and there were no gasoline, our economy would collapse. They know this and they're taking advantage of it. It's our own fault for putting all of our eggs in one basket like that, but that doesn't mean that it's not evil for them to exploit our weaknesses or addictions.

:werd: to the motha f'n:werd:

[stu]

You can't blame people's poverty and life struggles on gas companies. You might as well just say that gas companies are "the man" and are "holding everyone" else down. It's just not that simple. There were millions of poor people who were barely survivng before oil companies and there will still be millions after oil companies. Just because someone gets rich off of something doesn't automatically tie it in with why other people are poor. You might as well just say that there would be less AIDs in Africa if oil companies made less money.

[Weston-work]

You missed the point, Stu.

[Dave_L]

So if someone can't afford bread, are we supposed to be mad at the bread companies?

[Weston-work]

So if someone can't afford bread, are we supposed to be mad at the bread companies?

That doesn't fit. Bread doesn't have an insanely high profit, and the bread companies didn't jack up the price and band together to keep the profits high. There are also plenty of other things for people to eat.

[stu]

It's not banding together Weston, it's pricing your product as close to the other guys, but still pricing as high as possible. It's just a price war, every company does it.

Plus, profit doesn't matter in this equation at all. The cost to produce something never matters, only what the market value is.

[Weston-work]

It's not banding together Weston, it's pricing your product as close to the other guys, but still pricing as high as possible. It's just a price war, every company does it.

Plus, profit doesn't matter in this equation at all. The cost to produce something never matters, only what the market value is.

Believe it or not, I do understand the business and economics aspect of this, but that's not really my problem with it... It still comes down to right and wrong, which seems to be a foreign language to many people these days. It's more than "just business" when it is so badly hurting people and this nation.

Think of it this way... Let's say that 90% of the people in this country got cancer, and I'm a big drug company who has the cure... I could sell it at $100 per treatment over cost and make a very healthy profit, but I know that everyone needs me in order to survive, so I sell it at $10,000 per treatment and make more money than I could ever possibly spend. Meanwhile, people are selling everything they have and going bankrupt, just to survive, and others are dead because they couldn't come up with the money. How would I not be evil? Would/should the government jump in and require me to sell it at a more reasonable price, instead of allowing my greed to threaten the economy and the stability of the nation?

People can't prevent getting cancer much more than they can avoid being born into an oil-addicted country/world. Yeah, some choose to do things that worsen their situation, but most don't, and they still get screwed over anyway.

[hatchbackgirl]

I think we should start a petition to lower gas prices and forward it to everyone in our address books and once it reaches 2000 people that person should send it to George Bush.... oh, wait....

[PePe240sx]

I think we should start a petition to lower gas prices and forward it to everyone in our address books and once it reaches 2000 people that person should send it to George Bush.... oh, wait....


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Weston]

hes talking about electrolysis, ive actually built an electrolysis machine before, cool stuff.

Yup. I just did a quick little experiment in my garage, and let's just say that even with a very half-assed setup (2-liter coke bottle, two old bolts as electrodes, and a pretty dead car battery for power), it works quite fast and turns salt water into something that's definately flammable. :D I remember doing similar things (mostly electroplating) in high school science classes, but I'm surprised at how well this works on only around 2 watts of power (0.2 amps at 10-11 volts). The negative electrode is immediately covered with H2 bubbles, which flow to the top and cause a flame to flare up and crackle... turn off the power and the bubbles stop and the flame shrinks down to normal.

Tomorrow's experiment will of course be bigger and better... more efficient electrodes, more power, and bigger explosions... :D

[smithz]

Yup. I just did a quick little experiment in my garage, and let's just say that even with a very half-assed setup (2-liter coke bottle, two old bolts as electrodes, and a pretty dead car battery for power), it works quite fast and turns salt water into something that's definately flammable. :D I remember doing similar things (mostly electroplating) in high school science classes, but I'm surprised at how well this works on only around 2 watts of power (0.2 amps at 10-11 volts). The negative electrode is immediately covered with H2 bubbles, which flow to the top and cause a flame to flare up and crackle... turn off the power and the bubbles stop and the flame shrinks down to normal.

Tomorrow's experiment will of course be bigger and better... more efficient electrodes, more power, and bigger explosions... :D
I wonder if you could let the hydrogen get sucked into the intake. So you wouldn't have to worry about pressurizing it. Not sure how dangerous it would be to have hydrogenated air being compressed by a rather hot turbo. Plus I doubt it could genertate enough hydrogen to supply it quickly enough. You would have to do some interesting tuning to make it work correctly.

Interesting concept though. You may be making obscene amounts of money shortly if you figure it out... :D

[Weston]

I wonder if you could let the hydrogen get sucked into the intake. So you wouldn't have to worry about pressurizing it. Not sure how dangerous it would be to have hydrogenated air being compressed by a rather hot turbo. Plus I doubt it could genertate enough hydrogen to supply it quickly enough. You would have to do some interesting tuning to make it work correctly.

Interesting concept though. You may be making obscene amounts of money shortly if you figure it out... :D

Yeah, some other people are doing this and it seems that their method of H2 gas "injection" is to just run a tube to a vacuum port on the intake manifold and let it be sucked in. Works fine with a NA engine since it pretty much always has some vacuum in the manifold, but a turbo engine would be a little different, being that the manifold could easily be under more pressure than the H2 supply, and it would be pretty dangerous to feed explosive gas to the turbo's intake instead. I have some ideas for getting it to still feed into the intake manifold under boost though.

Anyway, the fact that they've got a hose running to the intake manifold like that makes me wonder if part of the fuel economy improvement is just the car running lean from a vaccum leak, but I don't think creating a leak in my intake manifold is going to get me the 50% and higher MPG gains that have been reported with hydrogen boosters. I figure that this primitive method of feeding the H2 gas to the engine is taking advantage of the emissions controls... specifically, the O2 sensor and the ECU's closed-loop mode of operation. The H2 gas would just make the engine run rich since it is already being supplied with enough gasoline for the amount of air coming in, and then the O2 sensor would read that and reduce the amount of gasoline, so it is effectively being replaced by H2 gas. There's also the fact that some more air is coming in along with that H2 gas, so it's doing more than just making the engine run rich. For a real good solution, I would want to measure the amount of H2 being fed to the engine and automatically reduce the fuel injector pulses accordingly. I think that wouldn't be too hard to do, if I just had a sensor to measure the H2 flow.

Edit: of course, the last guy that made much progress with this was poisoned... :\ and http://www.mpgresearch.com just got hacked and had a bunch of their files and databases deleted.

Edit #2: check this shit out: http://www.fueleconomytips.info/mpg/viewtopic.php?t=563 (although that one guy's story could be made up, that doesn't change the fact that other people are being censored)

[Nate]

I don't feel like reading all of this cause it is early but I read some of it.

Weston, comparing profits on and the use of oil to the cures for cancer and pricing them so that people can't buy them is stupid and you know it.

Oil and cancer cures are pretty different things. Oil is not priced at the point where it is unbuyable for the general public or else you'd see a lot less low income people with Escalades on 26s.

Oil companies don't control the prices, the buyers and the people trading oil futures do. Do you think as a company someone should come out with $40 a barrel oil? What would that solve? Someone would buy it, sell it for $70, and make their own $30. Oil companies don't sell to consumers.

EDIT: I figured I'd add this, I may be biased since I work at an oil & gas company (which is very good to their employees) but that doesn't change the simple part to understand that commodity based companies don't set prices. There are plenty of times commodities crash, it didn't happen long ago with oil. Commodity based companies don't have the ability to be greedy because they don't set their prices. An oil exploration and producer isn't Wal-Mart. It is just the right place and right time to be an oil company, doesn't have anything to do with greed.

[Weston-work]

I don't feel like reading all of this cause it is early but I read some of it.

Weston, comparing profits on and the use of oil to the cures for cancer and pricing them so that people can't buy them is stupid and you know it.

Oil and cancer cures are pretty different things. Oil is not priced at the point where it is unbuyable for the general public or else you'd see a lot less low income people with Escalades on 26s.

You're right, but my point wasn't about making it unbuyable... it was about having people at a significant disadvantage and sqeezing them as much as you can. The big difference between oil and the cancer scenario is that oil is not a one time thing, it's an addiction and it depends on repeat business, so you have to focus on squeezing people for as much as you can for as long as you can.


Oil companies don't control the prices, the buyers and the people trading oil futures do. Do you think as a company someone should come out with $40 a barrel oil? What would that solve? Someone would buy it, sell it for $70, and make their own $30. Oil companies don't sell to consumers.

EDIT: I figured I'd add this, I may be biased since I work at an oil & gas company (which is very good to their employees) but that doesn't change the simple part to understand that commodity based companies don't set prices. There are plenty of times commodities crash, it didn't happen long ago with oil. Commodity based companies don't have the ability to be greedy because they don't set their prices. An oil exploration and producer isn't Wal-Mart. It is just the right place and right time to be an oil company, doesn't have anything to do with greed.

I understand the economics of it, but that doesn't change the fact that this is like a drug dealer... they get you hooked for cheap, then jack up their prices when they know you need them bad. You could probably find another dealer who needs business a little more than the other and is willing to sell to you for cheaper, and that's how it used to be with oil, back when there was at least some real competition. After all the oil company mergers, and given the fact that they already have the majority of the wealth in this country, they really don't have to worry about competition or lower their prices to get more customers than the other guy. They've got us so hooked that it's not worth them lowering their prices to get substantially more customers, because they know that enough people will still buy from them at the higher price.

[stu]

Weston, you should punish yourself for using the cancer example. No one is dying because they can't fill up their tank. If someone really can't afford gas, then they have more problems to begin with and it's NO ONE's responsibility to help them out but their own. No company on the planet should be giving hand outs because someone can't afford some gas.

The second reason that your analogy blows is because you're assuming that the cancer cure is something that can be easily made while oil is an entire different story.

Technology will always improve, and in fact history shows that the technology to harvest a natural resource has always increased at such a rate that the harvesting costs go down at an equal, if not higher rate, than the difficulty to harvest rises as less of the comodity exists.

I think it's funny how all you guys are so convinced that E85 is the answer to the oil problem, yet no one seems to realize that if you planted every open space in the nation with corn, you wouldn't be able to produce near enough fuel for the nations requirements, and you'll still run into the same supply/demand problem as we supposedly have right now.

[Conrad]

I think it's funny how all you guys are so convinced that E85 is the answer to the oil problem, yet no one seems to realize that if you planted every open space in the nation with corn, you wouldn't be able to produce near enough fuel for the nations requirements, and you'll still run into the same supply/demand problem as we supposedly have right now.


Where did you hear that information?? I am just curious... Brazil is a complete E85 nation. They do not import any oil! And they have a larger population.. I mean granted no where near the pop per sq mile we have but still. They have the largest corn fields in the world.

[myshtern]

One thing a lot of people overlook is the fact that private oil companies, on the global scale, control very little of the crude oil reserves. If I remember right, Exxon, BP and all the other giant oil companies combined control 13% of the oil reserves.

The rest is owned by governments - aka saudi arabia, russia, venezuala

[Dave_L]

Oh_Noez! We might have to start car pooling. How about people start riding their bike to work or walking places? There are other ways to getting places.

[Conrad]

One thing a lot of people overlook is the fact that private oil companies, on the global scale, control very little of the crude oil reserves. If I remember right, Exxon, BP and all the other giant oil companies combined control 13% of the oil reserves.

The rest is owned by governments - aka saudi arabia, russia, venezuala


Wow... did you like hear that on the news?

[Weston-work]

Weston, you should punish yourself for using the cancer example. No one is dying because they can't fill up their tank. If someone really can't afford gas, then they have more problems to begin with and it's NO ONE's responsibility to help them out but their own. No company on the planet should be giving hand outs because someone can't afford some gas.

You still don't get it, and you're being pretty heartless. Do other human beings really have any less right to be able to survive, simply because they don't make as much money as the rest of us? As for the cancer analogy, the issue is that the end result on the economy and the quality of life are quite similar, and that's why it's such a problem. And it is definately a survival issue; it's just not as obvious, because it's not so direct. It's more than just because people need fuel for transportation to get to work, school, doctors, etc. You can certainly get by with riding a bicycle, but that doesn't even come close to eliminating the impact of high energy costs on you. The obvious thing is that you also depend on fuel to power and heat your home, but we'll even ignore that for now... If you so much as buy food, you are paying energy costs, because the companies that supply those things are completely dependant on it for production and transportation. It's not hard to see that the infrastructure of this country, and many other parts of the world, is dependant on energy, and the majority of that energy comes from oil. The rising cost of oil turns into the rising cost of food and everything else. Come on, Stu... you really aren't so blind as to think that doubling the cost of gasoline only means that we all pay twice as much to drive places.


The second reason that your analogy blows is because you're assuming that the cancer cure is something that can be easily made while oil is an entire different story.

Uhh... You might want to read your own argument below...

Technology will always improve, and in fact history shows that the technology to harvest a natural resource has always increased at such a rate that the harvesting costs go down at an equal, if not higher rate, than the difficulty to harvest rises as less of the comodity exists.

So, what you're saying is that... the costs to produce this stuff are going down over time? Well, I can certainly agree with that, but the fact remains that prices are going up and profits are skyrocketing as a result. Also, the point you just made conflicts with your own statement on E85 below...

I think it's funny how all you guys are so convinced that E85 is the answer to the oil problem, yet no one seems to realize that if you planted every open space in the nation with corn, you wouldn't be able to produce near enough fuel for the nations requirements, and you'll still run into the same supply/demand problem as we supposedly have right now.

That's simply not true, and E85 is not the ultimate solution... it's just a promising alternative, which also happens to be more friendly to the environment. Several other countries are already using way more ethanol than we do, and they have been doing so for quite some time. Brazil is the world leader is using ethanol as motor vehicle fuel. Also, how is the current situation a supply/demand issue when the suppliers are making record profits by increasing prices, and they even say that they have plenty of oil and we wont run out anytime soon?

[Weston-work]

Oh_Noez! We might have to start car pooling. How about people start riding their bike to work or walking places? There are other ways to getting places.

True, but like I mentioned in my reply to Stu, you're still getting the shaft from high oil prices because you depend on other things, like food, which depends on oil. The cost of high oil prices gets passed along to you in everything that you buy. That's a large part of the reason that nearly everything costs more than it did a few years ago when oil prices were lower.

[myshtern]

Wow... did you like hear that on the news?
You knew that the huge oil companies only hold 13% of the global reserves?
I read it in fortune actually.

[PePe240sx]

Oh_Noez! We might have to start car pooling. How about people start riding their bike to work or walking places? There are other ways to getting places.

No kidding, or move closer to work.

[stu]

Weston, you're really going out on a limb trying to tie inflation to oil prices. Remember how I spoke of increasing technology? Well that increase in technology reduces the cost of production everywhere, all across the board. I seriously doubt the slight rise in oil prices (which still haven't made a new peak as far as I've heard) are rising faster than technology is lowering production costs. Plain and simple, you're putting way too much into the whole oil thing, it just doesn't have that much of an effect.

[myshtern]

Weston's absolutely right about high oil prices and inflation.
The dollar loses buying power no matter how you look at it Stu.

The only thing the Federal Government can do is to replenish its own oil reserves when the prices are low and sell them when the prices are high. This administration has been pretty good at it so far - http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/energy/2005-08-28-oil-katrina_x.htm

The only problem is that their reserves can only hold enough for big emergencies.
They need to increase their reserve capacity.

[stu]

So you're saying that if it weren't for oil, we would have significantly less inflation?

I don't buy it for a second!

[JL LGT]

The only problem is that their reserves can only hold enough for big emergencies.
They need to increase their reserve capacity.
I've heard and read the opposite.

From the info I was given... the U.S. has the largest oil reserve in the western hemosphere (could be a bit of descriptive overkill) and could easily supply (as long as they could keep a simply re-supply of such) oil to it's own country... but those who govern such have reasons not to.

Of course.... this could obviously be twisted information... cause it happens often! Just thought I'd toss it in there.

[chris_venturini]

So you're saying that if it weren't for oil, we would have significantly less inflation?

I don't buy it for a second!
id have to disagree with you stu, think about it. All the products we buy are shipped with vehicles that use oil, most of our products are made of plastic or other petroleum byproducts. As the price of oil rises so do the costs of these products. When that happens the dollar i had that used to be able to buy me a quintuplite blade razor now can only buy half a razor, it cost more to manufacture it, ship it, the shelves its stocked on cost more, etc etc bread i bought just 2 years ago now costs twice as much to power the plants that make it, the shipping costs have doubled and thats reflected in the price of that bread. it really effects everything we do.

[Bedlam]

I guess I need to make sure that I keep a good relationship with my parents. My step-dad has worked for exxon for over 30 years now, and has an amazing pile of stock. I dont have much room to complain about prices..I was a bit shocked when I was up in Estes Park last week and saw that gas was $3.45/gallon..but I wanted to go for a drive, I knew that behavior was going to use gas...and I was willing to pay for it.

[Loud_Scott]

Weston, you're really going out on a limb trying to tie inflation to oil prices. Remember how I spoke of increasing technology? Well that increase in technology reduces the cost of production everywhere, all across the board.

Stu, the fact that it costs less to harvest a field of coffee beans today does not mean I'm paying less to drink coffee. Technology decreases the production price, it does not decrease the price paid by the customer.

I *might* be off base here, but I think this is what Weston is arguing. As the fat cats get fatter, everyone else gets the shaft.....Oil is just one of the biggest examples of that.

No kidding, or move closer to work.

That's stupid. What happens when I move, then get a better/different job somewhere else?? Move again?? That might work fine when you're going from 6 month apt lease to 6 month apt lease -- but good luck building equity in a house that way....

I've heard and read the opposite.

From the info I was given... the U.S. has the largest oil reserve in the western hemosphere (could be a bit of descriptive overkill) and could easily supply (as long as they could keep a simply re-supply of such) oil to it's own country... but those who govern such have reasons not to.

Of course.... this could obviously be twisted information... cause it happens often! Just thought I'd toss it in there.


I've heard this same thing; the problem is the reserves are in the Alaskan Wilderness, which is mostly protected. To unprotect that to allow it for processing would be political suicide, and no president is man enough (granted, dumb enough) to do so.....

[Weston-work]

Weston, you're really going out on a limb trying to tie inflation to oil prices. Remember how I spoke of increasing technology? Well that increase in technology reduces the cost of production everywhere, all across the board. I seriously doubt the slight rise in oil prices (which still haven't made a new peak as far as I've heard) are rising faster than technology is lowering production costs. Plain and simple, you're putting way too much into the whole oil thing, it just doesn't have that much of an effect.

That's bullshit, Stu. Sure, there are many things that affect inflation, but if I'm making a product and then my energy and shipping costs go up, I'm going to have little choice but to pass that cost along to the consumer. This "increase in technology" that you speak of isn't as magical as you seem to think... it's not always a huge benefit, it's not instant, and it's usually not free. Work for a company that's involved in manufacturing for a few years, and you'll see what I mean. It takes time and money to implement these things, and then they don't always turn out to be so fantastic. Also, what you call a "slight rise in oil prices" is actually an increase of 100% to 200% from just a few years ago. You have an interesting definition of "slight".

When energy and transportation costs double or tripple, how can you tell me that it doesn't affect the costs passed along to the consumer? There are many businesses that are struggling because of this... if they pass all of the costs along to consumers, they get less business (unless the customers can't really function without the product, like oil), so they often have to eat some of the costs themselves... but either way, it's not so easy to stay in the black anymore. And look what it's doing to non-profits, who are simply trying to help other people out: http://www.longmontfyi.com/Local-Story.asp?ID=8634 But I suppose you would say that the oil companies deserve ridiculous profits more than those people deserve to survive, because they can't support themselves as well as the rest of us can... :rolleyes:

[Weston-work]

id have to disagree with you stu, think about it. All the products we buy are shipped with vehicles that use oil, most of our products are made of plastic or other petroleum byproducts. As the price of oil rises so do the costs of these products. When that happens the dollar i had that used to be able to buy me a quintuplite blade razor now can only buy half a razor, it cost more to manufacture it, ship it, the shelves its stocked on cost more, etc etc bread i bought just 2 years ago now costs twice as much to power the plants that make it, the shipping costs have doubled and thats reflected in the price of that bread. it really effects everything we do.

:werd:

:werd: to Loud_Scott too.

[chris_venturini]

stu, was i naked when you came into my room this morning? i think i was but was too tired to realize or care.

[Nate]

I understand the economics of it, but that doesn't change the fact that this is like a drug dealer... they get you hooked for cheap, then jack up their prices when they know you need them bad.

We don't set the price of our oil and gas, we sell it at the price people are paying. If we could jack up the price of oil believe me, we probably would.

I don't disagree with the fact that the whole situation sucks, that we pay more for every item because of the cost of production and transportation, etc.

My point is, an oil company didn't "hook" you on gasoline, an oil company doesn't sell you gasoline, and a normal oil company can't "jack up" thier prices. The closest thing we can do to setting our own prices is called hedging, I'm not sure if you know what that is but it is setting prices now for things to sell in the future. It's like gambling, but it also provides a set revenue you know you have. We can't sell oil for any more then the next guy unless we have some competitive advantage, we can't jack up a price. You aren't thinking of these thing as commodities but they are.

Say all of a sudden, 80% of the nation's corn dies, what happens? The people who trade commodity corn and corn futures and all that stuff on the exchanges start paying more because of prospective supply and demand problems and they know THEY can sell the stuff for more. A corn farmer doesn't get the profit the grocery store or the middleman makes. A corn farmer sells his corn at the price the next person in line is paying.

You wouldn't turn down a 100% salary jump when there is a shortage of people in your field so that you don't screw your company out of their revenues and profits would you? How is it any different the other way around?

[stu]

Chris: I don't know if you were naked because you had covers on.

Alex, Conrad, Loud_Scott: The shale in Colorado has as much oil in it than Saudi Arabia, it is just worse quality and more difficult to get out. They tried in the 80's, but didn't have the technology to pull it in a cost effective manner. The last I've heard is that they have developed a much better (more efficient and cost effective) way, but are still experimenting.

The figure that I think Alex keeps refering to (13%) is actually something else if I remember correctly. I do know that of all the "new" oil wells every year, those account for all of like 12-15% of the oil we actually use. All the other oil is taken from previously established wells, but we've got better methods that help pull additional oil from previously "dried up" wells.

Chris, I highly doubt that companies buy new shelves to store good every year. I understand how transportation costs have gone up, I got a letter in the mail about how my trash bill was going up because of it, but it was only by like $3 a month.

[chris_venturini]

Chris: I don't know if you were naked because you had covers on.


Chris, I highly doubt that companies buy new shelves to store good every year. I understand how transportation costs have gone up, I got a letter in the mail about how my trash bill was going up because of it, but it was only by like $3 a month.
Thats good, i dont think you are ready to see me naked yet. Josh had to wait 4 months for that.

I used the shelf example to magnify the point that most everything has petroleum ties to it, not whether they replaced them every year. My arguement is untouchable.

[stu]

The main problem with this whole thread is that you guys actually believe that there is a problem with profits. EVERY company in the entire world tries to make more profits this year than they did the year before. Thousands, if not millions of companies make "record profits" every single year, quarter, month, week, day, and no one complains about them.

I bet Tobi makes way more profit now, than he did when he first started his business, and he's not even the cheapest in town, yet everyone swings from his nuts on a daily basis (as they should). How come no one complains about TC's Performance constantly growing and upgrading?

[chris_venturini]

oh, i wasnt argueing about the profits they make. Just about how oil prices do affect inflation, cause they do.

[Conrad]

Chris: I don't know if you were naked because you had covers on.

Alex, Conrad, Loud_Scott: The shale in Colorado has as much oil in it than Saudi Arabia, it is just worse quality and more difficult to get out. They tried in the 80's, but didn't have the technology to pull it in a cost effective manner. The last I've heard is that they have developed a much better (more efficient and cost effective) way, but are still experimenting.

The figure that I think Alex keeps refering to (13%) is actually something else if I remember correctly. I do know that of all the "new" oil wells every year, those account for all of like 12-15% of the oil we actually use. All the other oil is taken from previously established wells, but we've got better methods that help pull additional oil from previously "dried up" wells.

Chris, I highly doubt that companies buy new shelves to store good every year. I understand how transportation costs have gone up, I got a letter in the mail about how my trash bill was going up because of it, but it was only by like $3 a month.


I saw the oil shale thing too... the production cost hasnt decreased. Its the polution factor that they dont want to do it. They pump water under it to bring the oil to the top. They are scared what this will do environmentally and to the stability of the area.

[stu]

I saw the oil shale thing too... the production cost hasnt decreased. Its the polution factor that they dont want to do it. They pump water under it to bring the oil to the top. They are scared what this will do environmentally and to the stability of the area.


No, that's not what they do at all. They've been doing that for years with other types of wells. Using water to bring the oil out isn't even possible for the shale that we are talking about.

**Note, you must have read something really old, because they use ice to block off everything around the well, then literally steam clean the well afterwards and the cost to the environment is extremely low.**

What they do for shale is drill holes into the ground, insert larger heaters into the ground to increase the viscosity of the oil (Shale is poor in both porosity and permiability, so you can't force the oil out with water. Plus, this oil is sticky like hot rubber so you have to heat it until it is more fluid).
They used to break the rock, bring chunks up to the surface, then bake the oil out, but that cost too much and was too inefficient. Plus I imagine it left much larger holes in the ground.

[Weston-work]

We don't set the price of our oil and gas, we sell it at the price people are paying. If we could jack up the price of oil believe me, we probably would.

I don't disagree with the fact that the whole situation sucks, that we pay more for every item because of the cost of production and transportation, etc.

My point is, an oil company didn't "hook" you on gasoline, an oil company doesn't sell you gasoline, and a normal oil company can't "jack up" thier prices. The closest thing we can do to setting our own prices is called hedging, I'm not sure if you know what that is but it is setting prices now for things to sell in the future. It's like gambling, but it also provides a set revenue you know you have. We can't sell oil for any more then the next guy unless we have some competitive advantage, we can't jack up a price. You aren't thinking of these thing as commodities but they are.

I would agree. I know that one company usually can't just jack up their rates and make more money, because everyone would just go to their cheaper competition. But when they all do it at the same time, like they have, then they're all doing really well, until the first guy drops his price in an attempt to get a larger market share. However, with all the mergers and other business changes, the competition isn't exactly fierce these days, and the few giant companies that are left probably realize that they are more profitable not fighting each other too much. It's moving more and more towards being a monopoly. Like I said earlier in the thread, price fixing is illegal because it screws consumers like this, but in this case they appear to have made that situation happen, just without actually breaking the law.

Say all of a sudden, 80% of the nation's corn dies, what happens?

Tonnerre's car gets slower? :D

The people who trade commodity corn and corn futures and all that stuff on the exchanges start paying more because of prospective supply and demand problems and they know THEY can sell the stuff for more. A corn farmer doesn't get the profit the grocery store or the middleman makes. A corn farmer sells his corn at the price the next person in line is paying.

You wouldn't turn down a 100% salary jump when there is a shortage of people in your field so that you don't screw your company out of their revenues and profits would you? How is it any different the other way around?

I agree with those points, however I really don't think that it's a supply/demand issue, and it still comes down to everyone being screwed over while the oil companies are making insane amounts of money. Sure, OPEC is being a bunch of bastards, but we aren't quite as dependant on them as most people think. The big oil company excecutives have even gone on TV and were happy to tell us that they have plenty of oil, so we're not running out anytime soon, and they're just making as much money as they can get away with because that's what businesses do. The problem I have is that they're able to do that because of this virtual monopoly / price-fixing situation with oil, which fuels our whole economy, and that it's not "just business" when their lust for ridiculous amounts of profit is hurting the whole economy and screwing over so many people who depend on them.

[Weston-work]

The main problem with this whole thread is that you guys actually believe that there is a problem with profits. EVERY company in the entire world tries to make more profits this year than they did the year before. Thousands, if not millions of companies make "record profits" every single year, quarter, month, week, day, and no one complains about them.

I don't believe there's a problem with profits. I just see some pretty big ethical problems with exploiting people's need to survive, when you know that you're hurting millions of people by making excessive profits, and they would be fine if you just made high profits. Sorry, but just because it's "business" and they teach it in school, doesn't mean that it's right or that it's anything to be proud of. Also, if you read the article, you would know that the "record profits" being discussed are not just that own company's record, but a record for the whole US economy...

"Exxon Mobil Corp. said Thursday it earned $10.36 billion in the second quarter, the second largest quarterly profit ever recorded by a publicly traded U.S. company."

That means that they averaged $115 million of profit for each day of their second quarter.

I bet Tobi makes way more profit now, than he did when he first started his business, and he's not even the cheapest in town, yet everyone swings from his nuts on a daily basis (as they should). How come no one complains about TC's Performance constantly growing and upgrading?

Because there's a lot of competition, it's a luxury (not survival), and it doesn't impact the whole economy. Tobi is also one of the few honest mechanics that I know, and he doesn't exploit people's weaknesses / dependencies in order to make some insane profit. Please don't compare our hero with the evil that's behind big oil.

[Dave_L]

Weston, you need to stop having so many morals. ;)

[Dave_L]

They survived without cars back in the day. Looks like we're going back in time!

[stu]

Weston, it's not as easy as you think to just stick with the same price as your competitors, you litterally can't do anythign without rocking the boat. Plus, like Nate has already mentioned, oil companies don't set the prices, most companies can only set prices to a certain extent anyway.

[Weston-work]

They survived without cars back in the day. Looks like we're going back in time!

Screw you guys... I'll make my own fuel, and then I'll be king! :D