Seved's Conspiracy thread

[Seved]

In order not to spam the board with a vast amount of threads, I decide to put all in one. In this thread, my goal will be to answer your questions and and give factual information within those answers. There are many topics in which I may discuss with you, so I will leave it up to you. If you would like to ask questions or try to prove me wrong, so be it. I am not here to seek any gain whatsoever out of this.

My goal here is to get each and every one of you to wake up and ask questions about situations that are extremely important. This is our lives and our kids lives. So if you seek to ask questions, please do. If you want to bash me, go ahead but back up what you say, prove me wrong.

I don't care if everyone draws anger from this kinda topic, it does offened people. But if one person is willing to hear, then what do I have to loose? So once again, if no one cares to ask questions, so be it. This is just my humble attempt in order to get people to ask questions about situtations in which we are lied (and willing to accept) to everyday.

Edit: Latest information on Page 7!!

[HondasTrail]

In order not to spam the board with a vast amount of threads,I decided to put it all into one. In this thread, my goal will be to answer your questions and and give factual information within those answers. There are many topics in which I may discuss with you, so I will leave it up to you. If you would like to ask questions or try to prove me wrong, so be it. I am not here to seek any gain whatsoever out of this.

My goal here is to get each and every one of you to wake up and ask questions about situations that are extremely important. This is our lives and our kids lives. So if you seek to ask questions, please do. If you want to bash me, go ahead but back up what you say, prove me wrong.

I don't care if everyone draws anger from this kinda topic, it does offened people. But if one person is willing to hear, then what do I have to lose? So once again, if no one cares to ask questions, so be it. This is just my humble attempt in order to get people to ask questions about situtations in which we are lied (and willing to accept) to everyday.


What proof do you have that tells us we were lied to beyond reasonable doubt.

[Dave_L]

King Kong climbed the buildings and smashed them. The end.

[Weston-work]

I'm confused... what conspiracy is this thread about, and what proof do you have?

[Seved]

Sorry for not being specific in the areas in which I intend to cover. I am here to answer questions reguarding the attacks of September 11th and events that corrolate with the attacks. A lot of questions were asked and answered in the Oliver Stone thread, and many were good.

What proof do you have that tells us we were lied to beyond reasonable doubt.

Which event would you like to talk about?

I am willing to go into full depth of any aspect that I have some knowledge of, or if it is another, I can lead you into the right direction.

Like I said earlier, you really must know the history and the direction of the United States in order to fully grasp the situtation..

It takes two to debate, I will do my best to answer your questions and give you a detailed response. However, if people are just going to shrug it off and not be willing to do a little research for your self, then please don't particpate within this thread.

Now to start off.

ATTN STU: I recall you asking me the 'but why' questions. Who is to gain? Who must we attack our on soil? Why must so many people die? Here is a great article as to 'why' it was submitted on another forum by a member named Niggle.

So we all know pretty much When, What and Who (to a lesser extent) - or we wouldn't be here...

Why?

What Motive could possibly justify the series of actions leading up to 9.11 and up to now?


* In order to justify perpetrating your own Pearl Harbour to mobilize everyone onside you need a lot of support for a damn big problem.


Just as you suspected, it's about oil and money - but on such a scale... this is going to take a while, and goes way way back, and it's economics. Sorry but this will take a few pages.

Money? Yep even Bernanke is going to get involved... fascinating cast throughout...


* Saddam was going to change oil-sales from US$ to EUR$ approx April 2003 - UN paperwork late 2000.

Iraq was invaded supposedly to stop the use of WMD's (9.11 connection) mid March 2003. Via Afghanistan who purportedly through ElQ where responsible for 9.11

Clearly the US needed a lot of BIG reasons for going in to justify mobilization. 9.11 was the Pearl Harbour necessary to mobilize.

* Iran has already instituted changes whereby they are now in the process of changing from US$ to EUR$ for oil.

If you were a betting man, what odds would you put on Iran's pulling this off?



THE threat was to the US$'s future; thats it, the US$, the bullying world standard, is Backed By Oil.
- oh wouldn'cha just hate to lose that!?


Just go buy some gold, and sell your real estate fast because this is happening real time...



At this point in time - the Iranian Oil Bourse will accelerate the fall of the American Empire just as Saddam's version proposed in 2000 would have - read on...


I. Economics of Empires

A nation-state taxes its own citizens, while an empire taxes other nation-states. The history of empires, from Greek and Roman, to Ottoman and British, teaches that the economic foundation of every single empire is the taxation of other nations. The imperial ability to tax has always rested on a better and stronger economy, and as a consequence, a better and stronger military. One part of the subject taxes went to improve the living standards of the empire; the other part went to strengthen the military dominance necessary to enforce the collection of those taxes.

Historically, taxing the subject state has been in various forms - usually gold and silver, where those were considered money, but also slaves, soldiers, crops, cattle, or other agricultural and natural resources, whatever economic goods the empire demanded and the subject-state could deliver. Historically, imperial taxation has always been direct: the subject state handed over the economic goods directly to the empire.

For the first time in history, in the twentieth century, America was able to tax the world indirectly, through inflation. It did not enforce the direct payment of taxes like all of its predecessor empires did, but distributed instead its own fiat currency, the U.S. Dollar, to other nations in exchange for goods with the intended consequence of inflating and devaluing those dollars and paying back later each dollar with less economic goods - the difference capturing the U.S. imperial tax.

Here is how this happened:

Early in the 20th century, the U.S. economy began to dominate the world economy. The U.S. dollar was tied to gold, so that the value of the dollar neither increased, nor decreased, but remained the same amount of gold. The Great Depression, with its preceding inflation from 1921 to 1929 and its subsequent ballooning government deficits, had substantially increased the amount of currency in circulation, and thus rendered the backing of U.S. dollars by gold impossible. This led Roosevelt to decouple the dollar from gold in 1932. Up to this point, the U.S. may have well dominated the world economy, but from an economic point of view, it was not an empire.

The fixed value of the dollar did not allow the Americans to extract economic benefits from other countries by supplying them with dollars convertible to gold.

Economically, the American Empire was born with Bretton Woods in 1945. The U.S. dollar was not fully convertible to gold, but was made convertible to gold only to foreign governments. This established the dollar as the reserve currency of the world.

It was possible, because during WWII, the United States had supplied its allies with provisions, demanding gold as payment, thus accumulating significant portion of the world's gold. An Empire would not have been possible if, following the Bretton Woods arrangement, the dollar supply was kept limited and within the availability of gold, so as to fully exchange back dollars for gold. However, the guns-and-butter policy of the 1960's was an imperial one: the dollar supply was relentlessly increased to finance Vietnam and LBJ's Great Society. Most of those dollars were handed over to foreigners in exchange for economic goods, without the prospect of buying them back at the same value. The increase in dollar holdings of foreigners via persistent U.S. trade deficits was tantamount to a tax - the classical inflation tax that a country imposes on its own citizens, this time around an inflation tax that U.S. imposed on rest of the world.

When in 1970-1971 foreigners demanded payment for their dollars in gold, The U.S. Government defaulted on its payment on August 15, 1971. While the popular spin told the story of "severing the link between the dollar and gold", in reality the denial to pay back in gold was an act of bankruptcy by the U.S. Government.

Essentially, the U.S. declared itself an Empire. It had extracted an enormous amount of economic goods from the rest of the world, with no intention or ability to return those goods, and the world was powerless to respond - the world was taxed and it could not do anything about it.

From that point on, to sustain the American Empire and to continue to tax the rest of the world, the United States had to force the world to continue to accept ever-depreciating dollars in exchange for economic goods and to have the world hold more and more of those depreciating dollars.

It had to give the world an economic reason to hold them, and that reason was oil.

In 1971, as it became clearer and clearer that the U.S Government would not be able to buy back its dollars in gold, it made in 1972-73 an iron-clad arrangement with Saudi Arabia to support the power of the House of Saud in exchange for accepting only U.S. dollars for its oil.

The rest of OPEC was to follow suit and also accept only dollars. Because the world had to buy oil from the Arab oil countries, it had the reason to hold dollars as payment for oil. Because the world needed ever increasing quantities of oil at ever increasing oil prices, the world's demand for dollars could only increase. Even though dollars could no longer be exchanged for gold, they were now exchangeable for oil.

The economic essence of this arrangement was that the dollar was now backed by oil. As long as that was the case, the world had to accumulate increasing amounts of dollars, because they needed those dollars to buy oil. As long as the dollar was the only acceptable payment for oil, its dominance in the world was assured, and the American Empire could continue to tax the rest of the world.

If, for any reason, the dollar lost its oil backing, the American Empire would cease to exist. Thus, Imperial survival dictated that oil be sold only for dollars. It also dictated that oil reserves were spread around various sovereign states that weren't strong enough, politically or militarily, to demand payment for oil in something else. If someone demanded a different payment, he had to be convinced, either by political pressure or military means, to change his mind.

The man that actually did demand Euro for his oil was Saddam Hussein in 2000. At first, his demand was met with ridicule, later with neglect, but as it became clearer that he meant business, political pressure was exerted to change his mind. When other countries, like Iran, wanted payment in other currencies, most notably Euro and Yen, the danger to the dollar was clear and present, and a punitive action was in order.

Bush's Shock-and-Awe in Iraq was not about Saddam's nuclear capabilities, about defending human rights, about spreading democracy, or even about seizing oil fields; it was about defending the dollar, ergo the American Empire.

It was about setting an example that anyone who demanded payment in currencies other than U.S. Dollars would be likewise punished. If 9.11 was self-created in order to mobilize, it set the stage with fluid timing.

Many have criticized Bush for staging the war in Iraq in order to seize Iraqi oil fields. However, those critics can't explain why Bush would want to seize those fields - he could simply print dollars for nothing and use them to get all the oil in the world that he needs. He must have had some other reason to invade Iraq.

There can be no doubt that 9.11 was the crisis needed to make the Empire mobilize. In the context of this scale of wealth, the poorly backed up claims of the 9.11 attack seem a godsend beyond coincidence.

History teaches that an empire should go to war for one of two reasons: (1) to defend itself or (2) benefit from war; if not, as Paul Kennedy illustrates in his magisterial The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers, a military overstretch will drain its economic resources and precipitate its collapse. Economically speaking, in order for an empire to initiate and conduct a war, its benefits must outweigh its military and social costs. Benefits from Iraqi oil fields are hardly worth the long-term, multi-year military cost. The rage of the 9.11 events went a long way to divert attention from this, in fact 9.11 inspired military spending directly.

Bush needed to go into Iraq to defend the Empire. Indeed, this is the case: two months after the United States invaded Iraq, the Oil for Food Program was terminated, the Iraqi Euro accounts were switched back to dollars, and oil was sold once again only for U.S. dollars. No longer could the world buy oil from Iraq with Euro. Global dollar supremacy was once again restored. Bush descended victoriously from a fighter jet and declared the mission accomplished - he had successfully defended the U.S. dollar, and thus the American Empire. The confusion of 9.11 was the catalyst which made the great power rise up and mobilize, it effectively accellerated the military.

II. Iranian Oil Bourse

The Iranian government has finally developed the ultimate "nuclear" weapon that can swiftly destroy the financial system underpinning the American Empire. That weapon is the Iranian Oil Bourse slated to open mid 2006. It will be based on a euro-oil-trading mechanism that naturally implies payment for oil in Euro. In economic terms, this represents a much greater threat to the hegemony of the dollar than Saddam's, because it will allow anyone willing either to buy or to sell oil for Euro to transact on the exchange, thus circumventing the U.S. dollar altogether. If so, then it is likely that almost everyone will eagerly adopt this euro oil system:

* The Europeans will not have to buy and hold dollars in order to secure their payment for oil, but would instead pay with their own currencies. The adoption of the euro for oil transactions will provide the European currency with a reserve status that will benefit the European at the expense of the Americans.

* The Chinese and the Japanese will be especially eager to adopt the new exchange, because it will allow them to drastically lower their enormous dollar reserves and diversify with Euros, thus protecting themselves against the depreciation of the dollar. One portion of their dollars they will still want to hold onto; a second portion of their dollar holdings they may decide to dump outright; a third portion of their dollars they will decide to use up for future payments without replenishing those dollar holdings, but building up instead their euro reserves.

* The Russians have inherent economic interest in adopting the Euro - the bulk of their trade is with European countries, with oil-exporting countries, with China, and with Japan. Adoption of the Euro will immediately take care of the first two blocs, and will over time facilitate trade with China and Japan. Also, the Russians seemingly detest holding depreciating dollars, for they have recently found a new religion with gold. Russians have also revived their nationalism, and if embracing the Euro will stab the Americans, they will gladly do it and smugly watch the Americans bleed.

* The Arab oil-exporting countries will eagerly adopt the Euro as a means of diversifying against rising mountains of depreciating dollars. Just like the Russians, their trade is mostly with European countries, and therefore will prefer the European currency both for its stability and for avoiding currency risk, not to mention their jihad against the Infidel Enemy.

Only the British will find themselves between a rock and a hard place. They have had a strategic partnership with the U.S. forever, but have also had their natural pull from Europe. So far, they have had many reasons to stick with the winner. However, when they see their century-old partner falling, will they firmly stand behind him or will they deliver the coup de grace? Still, we should not forget that currently the two leading oil exchanges are the New York's NYMEX and the London's International Petroleum Exchange (IPE), even though both of them are effectively owned by the Americans. It seems more likely that the British will have to go down with the sinking ship, for otherwise they will be shooting themselves in the foot by hurting their own London IPE interests. It is here noteworthy that for all the rhetoric about the reasons for the surviving British Pound, the British most likely did not adopt the Euro namely because the Americans must have pressured them not to: otherwise the London IPE would have had to switch to Euros, thus mortally wounding the dollar and their strategic partner.

At any rate, no matter what the British decide, should the Iranian Oil Bourse accelerate, the interests that matter-those of Europeans, Chinese, Japanese, Russians, and Arabs-will eagerly adopt the Euro, thus sealing the fate of the dollar.

Americans cannot allow this to happen, and if necessary, will use a vast array of strategies to halt or hobble the operation's exchange:

* Sabotaging the Exchange - this could be a computer virus, network, communications, or server attack, various server security breaches, or a 9-11-type attack on main and backup facilities.

* Coup d'état - this is by far the best long-term strategy available to the Americans.

* 9.11 Clone - blame Iran for a direct attack.

* Negotiating Acceptable Terms & Limitations - this is another excellent solution to the Americans. Of course, a government coup is clearly the preferred strategy, for it will ensure that the exchange does not operate at all and does not threaten American interests. However, if an attempted sabotage or coup d'etat fails, then negotiation is clearly the second-best available option.

* Joint U.N. War Resolution - this will be, no doubt, hard to secure given the interests of all other member-states of the Security Council. Feverish rhetoric about Iranians developing nuclear weapons undoubtedly serves to prepare this course of action.

* Unilateral Nuclear Strike - this is a terrible strategic choice for all the reasons associated with the next strategy, the Unilateral Total War. The Americans will likely use Israel to do their dirty nuclear job.

* Unilateral Total War - this is obviously the worst strategic choice. First, the U.S. military resources have been already depleted with two wars. Secondly, the Americans will further alienate other powerful nations. Third, major dollar-holding countries may decide to quietly retaliate by dumping their own mountains of dollars, thus preventing the U.S. from further financing its militant ambitions. Finally, Iran has strategic alliances with other powerful nations that may trigger their involvement in war; Iran reputedly has such alliance with China, India, and Russia, known as the Shanghai Cooperative Group, a.k.a. Shanghai Coop and a separate pact with Syria.

Whatever the strategic choice, from a purely economic point of view, should the Iranian Oil Bourse gain momentum, it will be eagerly embraced by major economic powers and will precipitate the demise of the dollar. The collapsing dollar will dramatically accelerate U.S. inflation and will pressure upward U.S. long-term interest rates. At this point, the Fed will find itself between Scylla and Charybdis - between deflation and hyperinflation - it will be forced fast either to take its "classical medicine" by deflating, whereby it raises interest rates, thus inducing a major economic depression, a collapse in real estate, and an implosion in bond, stock, and derivative markets, with a total financial collapse.


If I was the "old guard of the US" I'd be stuck also; once they lose grip on global dollar power and countries fall off the wagon, do you just go invade every threat and seize every asset? Or keep relying on misinformation for reasons behind the actions? Every other country on the planet has to endure these cycles, of course they can't roll 40 divisions of troops out in 24hours either.

Mind you - if I was one of the old-guard: hah, I'd be 20 years ahead of the lot of you and triply confusing you too - this is my long term security. There are a dozen innovative methods still unexploited in all this - be prepared for suprises!

I suppose the biggest question remaining, given the facts that the US government has already gone so far as to actually attack themselves and blame impossible culprits in order to invade and seize huge global assets, to avoid massive economic downturn, is this: Where Will It Ever End? OR can it end now, I doubt it, it has to go on, and on...


You see the only alternative of getting out of this humungeous debt is to buy your way out with a combination of US$'s and something truly truly valuable, some gold sure but - uuummm, maybe a few Oil Fields?

Now where could one find a few oil fields to bail out the Saudi and Japanese debt?
Hmmmm.... of course you'd need to mobilize a huge army... and be completely scupulously focussed on this as a goal...


Niggle


and PS: in 15 years with the reactor base in Iran, maybe, they could make enough plutonium - maybe - but just before we go all "Nukey" on this matter.... forget it.. it's just another WMD red-herring... the Govt just believes that 90% of US citizens are too lazy to give any mental energy to the confusing matter - just like both Iraq and 9.11!

PPS: There's another economic alternative, the most likely when this hits the fan: to take the Weimar way out by inflating, whereby it pegs the long-bond yield and drowns the financial system in liquidity, hyperinflating the economy.
Commander-in-Chief Ben Bernanke has mastered the lessons of the Great Depression and the annihilating power of deflations. To avoid deflation, he will resort to the printing presses; and, if necessary, he will monetize everything in sight.
His ultimate accomplishment will be the hyperinflationary destruction of the American currency and from its ashes will rise the next reserve currency of the world - that relic called gold.
Naw, it's so easy to take over the middle east - but you gotta get the people on-side first.
Then you give control of oil fields to the right people.
Then you can control the world economy again without fear of transition or change.

[Slava]

I haven't read all of it yet but from this paragraph is wrong:

* The Russians have inherent economic interest in adopting the Euro - the bulk of their trade is with European countries, with oil-exporting countries, with China, and with Japan. Adoption of the Euro will immediately take care of the first two blocs, and will over time facilitate trade with China and Japan. Also, the Russians seemingly detest holding depreciating dollars, for they have recently found a new religion with gold. Russians have also revived their nationalism, and if embracing the Euro will stab the Americans, they will gladly do it and smugly watch the Americans bleed.


I formaly from Russian and still have friends and family in Russia can tell you that dollar has been and still is of high value in Russia. I don't know about watching America bleed part but I don't see Russia turnin away from dollar any time soon.

[john]

Uhh, wha??

[Seved]

What proof do you have that tells us we were lied to beyond reasonable doubt.


In addition to my last post, I must ask you a few questions? What aspects of 9/11 to you know are 'true'? Who do you believe was involved? And for what reasons?

I just wanna ask you one question. Remember how they found Satam's passport in the wreckage of the WTC. If you didn't know Satam was one of the alleged hijackers. Now, since the hijackers themselves went into the the cockpit of the plane, obviously this means they are in the front. I hope you understand where I am going with this.

If you don't believe me about the passport, please go read the 9/11 commission report. It is right there in the second chapter, that they found the passport and it was evidence.

Ok, now please explain to me how a paper passport can survive the WTC crash. It is just not logical in any aspect. They couldn't find any of the Black boxes yet a passport is found, and not only that it was readable!

A lot of what the government tells us may be true, but if there are instances in which such events are found faluable, shouldn't we as Americans question that?

[Weston-work]

So, in other words... we're going to go to nuclear war with Iran, Bush's approval rating will go even lower, civil war will break out here, and most of the world will not survive? Someone once told me that would happen... I guess I really fucked myself over by not joining that cult! :rofl:

[Seved]

I haven't read all of it yet but from this paragraph is wrong:

* The Russians have inherent economic interest in adopting the Euro - the bulk of their trade is with European countries, with oil-exporting countries, with China, and with Japan. Adoption of the Euro will immediately take care of the first two blocs, and will over time facilitate trade with China and Japan. Also, the Russians seemingly detest holding depreciating dollars, for they have recently found a new religion with gold. Russians have also revived their nationalism, and if embracing the Euro will stab the Americans, they will gladly do it and smugly watch the Americans bleed.


I formaly from Russian and still have friends and family in Russia can tell you that dollar has been and still is of high value in Russia. I don't know about watching America bleed part but I don't see Russia turnin away from dollar any time soon.

I understand what you are saying. But if you read right before that you will see.


The Iranian government has finally developed the ultimate "nuclear" weapon that can swiftly destroy the financial system underpinning the American Empire. That weapon is the Iranian Oil Bourse slated to open mid 2006. It will be based on a euro-oil-trading mechanism that naturally implies payment for oil in Euro. In economic terms, this represents a much greater threat to the hegemony of the dollar than Saddam's, because it will allow anyone willing either to buy or to sell oil for Euro to transact on the exchange, thus circumventing the U.S. dollar altogether. If so, then it is likely that almost everyone will eagerly adopt this euro oil system:

It is saying if certain events occur, this is what most likely will happen.

[Slava]

I understand what you are saying. But if you read right before that you will see.


The Iranian government has finally developed the ultimate "nuclear" weapon that can swiftly destroy the financial system underpinning the American Empire. That weapon is the Iranian Oil Bourse slated to open mid 2006. It will be based on a euro-oil-trading mechanism that naturally implies payment for oil in Euro. In economic terms, this represents a much greater threat to the hegemony of the dollar than Saddam's, because it will allow anyone willing either to buy or to sell oil for Euro to transact on the exchange, thus circumventing the U.S. dollar altogether. If so, then it is likely that almost everyone will eagerly adopt this euro oil system:

It is saying if certain events occur, this is what most likely will happen.


I see,
Question?

This is not a fact, I was told that US hasn't used its OIL resources for years now. Is that true? If it is then Bush will have to tap into US oil supply and still keep the Dollar at high. By not buying OIL from ARABs (which I beleive is their #1 money maker and I think the only source of economy) wouldn't that destroy them?

[Weston-work]

I thought we actually bought most of our oil from Canada?

[Slava]

I thought we actually bought most of our oil from Canada?


My coworker said that US is the #1 buyer of oil from Iran/Iraq.

I don't know if its true or not.

[Seved]

The Iran issue continues to become greater and greater. I cannot give to much information on the issue, for I have just begun researching.

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-727571,36-769886,0.html

In that Link, is a letter that the President of Iran wrote President Bush.

[Seved]

I see,
Question?

This is not a fact, I was told that US hasn't used its OIL resources for years now. Is that true? If it is then Bush will have to tap into US oil supply and still keep the Dollar at high. By not buying OIL from ARABs (which I beleive is their #1 money maker and I think the only source of economy) wouldn't that destroy them?

But technically, who would it really destroy? Just because your biggest buyer ins't buying from you, does this mean your not in business? If anything, In my opionion, this would hurt America. America is the number 1 buyer of Oil.

As I said, i do not know to much about this issue. So I am hesitant to respond to some of the questions, in order to not give you unfactual information.


Edit: But What do I care? You people are asking questions, and that was my goal all along. I am sure someone in this thread has looked alternative sources on the subject. So, keep up the good work, keep up the debate, and keep asking questions.

[Terry]

Was there any evidence that a plane hit the pentagon. I mean i was watching a certain movie and they said they took alll the video tapes. So wtf?

[Weston-work]

Was there any evidence that a plane hit the pentagon. I mean i was watching a certain movie and they said they took alll the video tapes. So wtf?

They actually just released one of those tapes the other day, but it doesn't really show anything other than a fireball. I don't see how a plane could have hit that and left the wreckage that it did. Passenger jets don't just vaporize, sorry.

[Seved]

Was there any evidence that a plane hit the pentagon. I mean i was watching a certain movie and they said they took alll the video tapes. So wtf?

Yes they did take all of the video tapes. And not less then a week ago did they show the public the pentagon video. Now here is a link to the new video. 1 minutes and 26 seconds within the film, is where they claim that you can see the nose of the plane and part of the fusealage(Sp?).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L75Gga92WO8&eurl=

Now here is the second video they released.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TAaP4Z3zls8&search=Judicial%20Watch%20American%20Airlines%20Fl ight%2077%20Pentagon%20September%2011%209/11%20911

At 24 seconds you can see the same object.

Now before we go further into detail, I would like each and every person participating to view the videos and express opinions based off of these videos.

P.S. On a side note, don't you find it akward, that only two video cameras were able to catch the attack on one of the most protected government buildings in America?

Edit: Many say the Pentagon is a huge psy-op design to kill the 9/11 movment.

This could be for one of two reasons.
1) Afraid to release any real and clear footage of the Pentagon impact because it doesn't stand up to the official story.

Or

2) They are waiting to make a huge controversy over this topic, then releasing the full blown tapes killing and discrediting the entire 9/11 Truth Movement using only one event.

Now, I am just gonna keep going off this post..

I want to ask you guyes a couple more questions.

Do you remember that Building 7 also collasped?
Do you know what NORAD was doing on September 11th.
Who has the authority to shoot down aircrafts?
And do YOU believe that the government had knowledge of terrorist flying planes into buildings?

[Weston-work]

There was video seized from a gas station across the street. I want to see that video.

What's interesting is that they could have totally faked these videos and shown anything they wanted crashing into the building... they had over 4 years, and every big hollywood movie proves that the technology exists to make it completely real looking.

[Seved]

Yes, but the videos would also have to completly match the frames they released in 2002.

Also what about the Hotel that is also across the street?


On a side note: Listen to this.

http://www.rense.com/general71/nbcaud.htm

[Weston-work]

Yes, but the videos would also have to completly match the frames they released in 2002.

Piece of cake. My step-mom is a visual effects editor who has worked on lots of big movies, and I've seen what a good Hollywood special effects company can do. When she was working on the Armageddon movie, they actually had to pull their Superbowl ad because it looked too real and the networks were afraid people would panic (it was a fake "breaking news" clip showing an asteroid hitting a football game, made to look like the Superbowl). Making a few seconds of blurry 1 frame-per-second video showing a jet hitting a building would be the easiest thing they've ever done. I promise you that the technology and experience exists to make that Pentagon video look like whatever they want and match it to what was already released. That's why I find it interesting that we don't see a passenger jet in that video... If they're going to give us a BS story about what happened, why not make the video match their story? The video does a better job of matching the missile theory and the actual wreckage than their jet story. I really don't think they'd be that incompitent at covering it up... If the jet story is BS, and it sure looks like it is, I would say that it seems that they want to be caught for some reason.

What I also find quite interesting is that your local Walmart apparently has better security cameras than the Pentagon. What's with this blurry 1 FPS shit? I find that interesting and suspicous. If something happened and they needed to get a plate number or face from a security video, they'd be really taking a gamble on if this blurry 1 FPS footage would give them what they need. I'd certainly expect the Pentagon to have their shit together a lot better than that when it comes to security.

Also what about the Hotel that is also across the street?

I haven't heard about that one. I'm sure there were several that were snatched up and never seen by the public.

[Weston-work]

By the way, here are some links about the leaked "Downing Street Memo", which shows that Bush lied his ass off to start the Iraq war...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1593607,00.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_street_memo

[-=[Juztin]=-]

a 757 hitting something solid and stationary at cruising speed would definately vaporize it. Just look at the really close shots of the 757's striking the WTC towers - they simply disappeared.

[Weston-work]

=-']a 757 hitting something solid and stationary at cruising speed would definately vaporize it. Just look at the really close shots of the 757's striking the WTC towers - they simply disappeared.

Well, the towers are another controversy, but I'll leave that be for the moment. There's no doubt that there would be a lot of damage, but the fact remains that there are no wing impacts on the Pentagon. Jet fuel also does not burn hot enough to vaporize all of the metal in the aircraft, yet we are told that it did.

[DrJones]

You guys are retarded, if you thin 9-11 was the US government.

It was the Freemasons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasons). The twin towers represent everything that the New World Order (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_%28conspiracy%29) needs destroyed.

The Freemasons have something the government doesn't. A motive.

If you need more proof. Look at this (http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/wtc/index02.htm).

Both Bill and George are confirmed Freemasons

[Weston-work]

You guys are retarded, if you thin 9-11 was the US government.

It was the Freemasons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasons). The twin towers represent everything that the New World Order (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_Order_%28conspiracy%29) needs destroyed.

The Freemasons have something the government doesn't. A motive.

What motive? To generate such distrust and hate for the government that civil war breaks out and it is destroyed? This is getting too complicated... I just need to build myself a shack in the mountains and wait it out... :rofl:

[DrJones]

What motive? To generate such distrust and hate for the government that civil war breaks out and it is destroyed? This is getting too complicated... I just need to build myself a shack in the mountains and wait it out... :rofl:

The whole purpose of the Freemasons is to bring about the New World Order.

They wish to change EVERYTHING about the way we currently live, and introduce a totally different way of running society.

Many prominant people in power are members of this organization. Hence, the government may of been behind the attacks, but the real cause of them was the freemasons in the government (ie Bush) who are making the decisions.

I know the next question is going to be, "Well what is the NWO and why do they want it?"

Well, that's simple. Look at China. It's a different way of runing the system. And it works.

For instance, they want to remove all sense of ownership of land. They want to completly remove the concept of 'family'. People will still marry, but all the men will live togeather and all the women will. Then the childen will be raised by a collective group. There is no sense of individualism.

They want to change everything from world politics, to our morals, to the economy.

And guess what? They are already in the process of doing so, and have been for some years.

Just recently a company announced they were doing 50 year home loans. Why is that? Because, they want people to get used to the idea that they don't own their house.

Look around, it's already happening. The WTC attacks were just another example of what they are trying to accomplish.

[Weston-work]

So... Shack in the mountains FTW! Who wants to join me?

[Weston-work]

For instance, they want to remove all sense of ownership of land. They want to completly remove the concept of 'family'. People will still marry, but all the men will live togeather and all the women will. Then the childen will be raised by a collective group. There is no sense of individualism.

But Paul... Star Trek taught us that this is bad. You don't really want to be a Borg, do you?

[Dave_L]

No one will make me live with a bunch of guys. You can go live in Fag-land but I'll hold my house to death. Fuck that shit!

[DrJones]

More info (http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/freedom/index.htm) about the New World Order.


THERE IS NO WORLD CONSPIRACY?
By David Icke

People who believe that there is no major world conspiracy which involves a small number of people manipulating humanity through a hierarchical structure of control toward a New World Order, all have one identical factor in common.

They have, in actual fact, not looked genuinely into the abundance of well-researched information on world conspiracy to see if there is one!

Many of those "non-believers" may well say: "It's just not possible, far too complex a plan for the world's population to become manipulated and controlled without everyone knowing about it."

Others may say: "It's just not possible that so few, immoral and unbalanced people can be in total control of our world society."

Others may just be in denial, because to realise such a fact would immediately crush the false security of their belief system, financial investments or employment situation, etc.

It may be that others are simply too afraid to allow this fearsome truth into their reality.

Whatever the reason, none have genuinely looked. They have not looked with an open mind, an open heart and with the honest intention of finding out the absolute truth.

[Dave_L]

Well-researched? He can't even spell "realize" correctly. :rofl:

[Seved]

The whole purpose of the Freemasons is to bring about the New World Order.

They wish to change EVERYTHING about the way we currently live, and introduce a totally different way of running society.

Many prominant people in power are members of this organization. Hence, the government may of been behind the attacks, but the real cause of them was the freemasons in the government (ie Bush) who are making the decisions.

I know the next question is going to be, "Well what is the NWO and why do they want it?"

Well, that's simple. Look at China. It's a different way of runing the system. And it works.

For instance, they want to remove all sense of ownership of land. They want to completly remove the concept of 'family'. People will still marry, but all the men will live togeather and all the women will. Then the childen will be raised by a collective group. There is no sense of individualism.

They want to change everything from world politics, to our morals, to the economy.

And guess what? They are already in the process of doing so, and have been for some years.

Just recently a company announced they were doing 50 year home loans. Why is that? Because, they want people to get used to the idea that they don't own their house.

Look around, it's already happening. The WTC attacks were just another example of what they are trying to accomplish.

This is one of the reasons why I said that you must understand and know America's history and founders. And as to why, each and every attack only brings their goal closer and closer..

Now DrJones, In one of the other threads, your responded to me with Popular Mechanics. PM is a common article referring as to how the WTC and such fell. Why the sudden change from PM to in a way agreeing with me?

[Seved]

Piece of cake. My step-mom is a visual effects editor who has worked on lots of big movies, and I've seen what a good Hollywood special effects company can do. When she was working on the Armageddon movie, they actually had to pull their Superbowl ad because it looked too real and the networks were afraid people would panic (it was a fake "breaking news" clip showing an asteroid hitting a football game, made to look like the Superbowl). Making a few seconds of blurry 1 frame-per-second video showing a jet hitting a building would be the easiest thing they've ever done. I promise you that the technology and experience exists to make that Pentagon video look like whatever they want and match it to what was already released. That's why I find it interesting that we don't see a passenger jet in that video... If they're going to give us a BS story about what happened, why not make the video match their story? The video does a better job of matching the missile theory and the actual wreckage than their jet story. I really don't think they'd be that incompitent at covering it up... If the jet story is BS, and it sure looks like it is, I would say that it seems that they want to be caught for some reason.

What I also find quite interesting is that your local Walmart apparently has better security cameras than the Pentagon. What's with this blurry 1 FPS shit? I find that interesting and suspicous. If something happened and they needed to get a plate number or face from a security video, they'd be really taking a gamble on if this blurry 1 FPS footage would give them what they need. I'd certainly expect the Pentagon to have their shit together a lot better than that when it comes to security.



I haven't heard about that one. I'm sure there were several that were snatched up and never seen by the public.

Nono, I totally agree with what you are saying. I mean, why would they wait 4 years to disclose video evidence? I mean, why not just blantenly prove to the world that a plane did hit the pentagon.

[DrJones]

This is one of the reasons why I said that you must understand and know America's history and founders. And as to why, each and every attack only brings their goal closer and closer..

Now DrJones, In one of the other threads, your responded to me with Popular Mechanics. PM is a common article referring as to how the WTC and such fell. Why the sudden change from PM to in a way agreeing with me?

That's true. I did link the Popular Mechanics article. I also didn't really read it before I linked it.

Then after reading what you wrote, I read it, then read the other links you had.

I started looking into it more, and well... frankly was shocked at what is really going on. Once I started comming across the stuff with the Freemasons and NWO I became 100% convinced. I don't see how anyone could argue against the evidence in support of that. It all ties in providing the motive and the means behind the stuff you linked. Once you look into it more you see it's all a puzzle, where the pieces all fit perfectly.

[Weston-work]

So then, do you think this change is a good thing or a bad thing? What about the alleged ties to Satan?

[DrJones]

So then, do you think this change is a good thing or a bad thing?

It doesn't really matter what anyone thinks about the change.

The fact is the change is already happening and the only people who can really prevent it are the people in power who are doing it.

[Seved]

We as American people can prevent it by spreading the word.

In response to DrJones post on the Freemasons I have gathered some quotes from well known people. Take them as you see fit.

"You are a den of vipers! I intend to rout you out, and by the Eternal God I will rout you out. If the people only understood the rank injustice of our money and banking system, there would be a revolution before morning."

-- President Andrew Jackson

"I am concerned for the security of our great nation; not so much because of any threat from without, but because of the insidious forces working from within."

-- General Douglas MacArthur

"The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the larger centers has owned the government since the days of Andrew Jackson."

"In politics nothing happens by accident; if it happens, you can be sure we planned it that way."

-- President Franklin Roosevelt

"Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."

-- President Woodrow Wilson

"This Act (the Federal Reserve Act, Dec. 23rd 1913) establishes the most gigantic trust on earth. When the President (Woodrow Wilson) signs the bill, the invisible government of the Monetary Power will be legalished... The worst legislative crime of the ages is perpetrated by this banking and currency Bill."


-- Charles A. Lingbergh, Sr.

This next one is amazing.

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwillingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the civilized world. No longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by a conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."

-- President Woodrow Wilson after implementing The Federal Reserve.

Seems he made a mistake.

George Washington was a proud member of the Freemasons.

" It is not my intention to doubt that the doctrine of the Illuminati and the principles of Jacobinism had not spread in the United States. On the contrary, no one is more satisfied of this fact than I am."v

-- George Washington - 1798
First they came from the Muslims, but I didn't speak up, because I wasn't Muslim. Then they came for Immigrants containing them indefinatley soley on the justification of the Atorney General and I didn't speak up because I wasn't an immigrant. Then they came to enter homes and offices for unannouced sneak and peak searches. But I didn't speak up, because I had nothing to hide. Then they came to arrest American citizens and hold them indeafantly with out any charges and without access to lawyers, But i didn't speak up cause I would never get arrested. Then they came for immigrants and students from selected countries luring them under the requirments of special registration as a official seizes them and detains them. But I didn't speak up because i wasn't required to register. Then they came for anyone who objected the government policy because it only aided the Terrorist and gave ammunition to America's enemies. Because I didn't speak up. And then they came for me and by that time, no one was left to speak up."

--Annonymous


Watch this VIDEO
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-448659287463550973&q=illuminati

[Seved]

So then, do you think this change is a good thing or a bad thing? What about the alleged ties to Satan?

Look up the society of Skull and Bones. Our last three presidents were members of this. In the last election both representitives were part of the Skull and Bones (Bush and Kerry). 11 Top government officials are also part of the Skull and Bones.

[Zach]

im gonna go live in the bahamas when i have enough money. either that or ill move to australia or japan.

[integra_drk]

i didnt know this was letstalkaboutpolitics.com

[Weston]

Look up the society of Skull and Bones. Our last three presidents were members of this. In the last election both representitives were part of the Skull and Bones (Bush and Kerry). 11 Top government officials are also part of the Skull and Bones.

Yeah, I've heard of Bush's involvement in that... Wasn't there a movie about that organization a few years ago? Worth seeing?

One question I have about the Free Masons is that if they were this country's founding fathers, then why didn't they start off with this New World Order that they wanted? Seems a lot easier to have done it then than to kill everyone off and take over the world to do it now.

I visited the ColoradoMasons.org site and they seem like mostly just a silly fraternity (ie completely pointless and pretentious) and I didn't see any mention of this New World Order. However, as I was watching their "What is Freemasonry?" video, my C drive ran out of space (why it takes 700 MB of disk space to stream a video in Real Player, I don't know)... This caused Real Player to flip out and start looping like a broken record. At first, it just did it a couple of times and kept moving along, but then it got stuck in an endless loop... the guy was saying something about the origins of this country, and right as it looped, it sounded like he said "six sixty six"... ;UgH: I'm not even kidding either! The first six was kinda questionable, but "sixty six" was very clear. I'm not saying that I believe one way or another, but I just thought that was an interesting coincidence...

[Seved]

Here are some great videos that will blow your mind on the subject.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-448659287463550973&q=illuminati

Illuminati Part 1
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2175715397430511673&q=illuminati
Part 2
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3567655929542957177&q=illuminati+part+2

[rmcdaniels]

So what's the problem? Rich and powerful forces control the country, fine with me. That's pretty much the principle the country was founded on. When the country was founded, poor people were not allowed to vote. Assorted "1 person/1 vote" boneheads, starting with Thomas Jefferson, have been working hard ever since to spread the voting franchise to every idiot in the country. Giving broke, stupid, irresponsible people a license to make decisions about where the country is headed is shortsighted at best. Go to Wal-Mart at midnight and tell me you want all those "voters" deciding your fate (seriously, go there at midnight, it's pretty amazing, and they even have their little kids with them, at midnight). (And anyone who wishes to call me racist, sexist, etc, because the founding fathers only allowed white males to vote can go fuck themselves, that's another issue entirely. ) Anyone who understands anything about how money and influence flow in our government has understood for many years that wealthy and powerful forces control our government (Read some of Ross Perot's books for the Cliff's Notes version of how the mechanism works). They control our government because we want them to (more on that later), and it's probably for the best.


As far as the WTC goes, there's no incontrovertible proof. There's also no way to reasonably speculate, since the global knowledge base on the mechanics of destroying massive skyscrapers by flying large airplanes into them is currently limited to a couple of incidents that did not happen under controlled conditions. Some academics and various other individuals seeking their 15 minutes of fame say it's impossible and blame it on the government, why am I not surprised? Other equally well respected academics and people all over the world say it is possible, plus there are plenty of fuckers around the world who would be happy to give it a shot (Our country has never been very big on making everyone around the world happy with us, spend some time in France and you'll understand what the rest of the world mostly thinks of us.). There is a way to settle this, all it will take is some abandoned skyscrapers and a handful of big airplanes. Then give them to those two guys on "Mythbusters". It would definitely be the best episode of any TV show EVER. As for the stories on the various Web sites that I have read, they remind me of "The DaVinci Code", or more precisely of the book that Brown used to write "The DaVinci Code", "Holy Blood, Holy Grail", take some facts, some evidence, connect the dots with some implications and outright speculation, find some experts who know that they can't be proven wrong, and you can make one hell of a story, but you can't prove any of it, because it's just a theory. Incidentally, the government has killed many thousands of it's citizens in various stupid exercises over the years. Read what's been declassified on how we tested the effectiveness of airborne dispersal mechanisms for weaponized bio-agents, that'll tell you exactly how much concern the government has for you as an individual. The U.S. Public Health Service's Tuskegee Syphilis Study is also very enlightening.


So the government used WMD's as an excuse to start a war in Iraq that was actually about protecting what it perceived as our national interests. No shit, that's pretty much what the government does, whatever it thinks necessary to protect our national interests. Once again, I don't have a problem with that. Saddam refused to play the game like we wanted him to, so he got his ass kicked. It happens all the time, and it happens because we want it to (more on that later). I've been personally involved in government operations in different parts of the world that the US undertook based solely on our national interests, fequently without the approval of our allies, or in direct contravention of the wishes of the international community and of the countries involved. I'd tell you more, but there's some shit that I'm really not supposed to give out details about. Suffice to say, our government does whatever it thinks is in our national interests (not in the interests of it's citizens, I've already made it clear how highly the government values us as individuals, just as much as a scientist values his lab rats, because without them he'd be out of business, but sometimes it's a little rough on the individual rats), no matter what it takes, because that's the way we want it (more on that later).


I could go on and on. Why are companies offering longer term mortgages? BECAUSE THEY CAN! No responsible corporation is going to stop at milking you for 30 years worth of interest if they can milk you for 50. Plus 50 year mortgages aren't even as bad as "interest-only" mortgages, which have been around for a while now. I knew a guy who got an "interest-only" car loan on his new BMW, and when the baloon payment came due, he re-fi'd it. His bank loves him. He's been paying car payments on the same car for 11 years!


Here's a fun one: Various wealthy and powerful secret societies have endless wacky secret plans that they are diligently working behind the scenes to bring to fruition, some with more success than others. I'm going to get all theological here, but for this one you really need to understand the concept and the powerful potential of what is commonly referred to as a "mystery religion". Pretty much since the time of Greek prominence in the world, this has been a great way to accumulate wealth and power. It's a religion in which secret knowledge ("mysteries") is doled out incrementally to individuals in return for commitments of resources or influence to the organization. One of the greatest examples is the Roman Catholic church, which at various points in history has ruled much of the world from behind the scenes. Christianity didn't actually start out like that, Jesus taught something entirely different, but you'll never hear many of his relevant teachings from any modern Christian church that I'm familiar with. The apostle Paul was the architect of modern Christianity, because he knew that Christianity the way Jesus taught it wouldn't amount to much in the way of power and influence. So he tweaked the gospels a bit (at least half of the officially accepted gospel text was written by guys who never met Jesus), borrowed heavily from Greek mystery religions, added some elements to make it acceptable to the pagans (they were incredibly numerous at the time and they could have really sunk his boat if they got pissed off at Christianity in the early years), and he rocked the world with it. Of course the religious communities that Jesus actually established were pretty inconvenient to have around at that point, because they knew the truth, so they were all declared heretics and killed. Nothing like a bit of genocide to get your religion off on the right foot! It works because people believe it. And they really believe it! At higher levels the secrets have to be momentous, or people wouldn't put their influence and fortunes on the line for it. Will they bring their wacky plans to fruition? Oh hell yes they will if they can, nothing boosts your credibility like success. Will men and women live in separate camps? Probably not, you're fucking with some pretty basic and very powerful biological imperatives there that will be hard to deny.


Now for my opinion, who makes all this possible? This is purely my theory, but it's you and me. Americans are the biggest consumers in the world, nobody else is even close. Go to most other countries and they don't have anything like the stuff that we have, their houses are smaller, they make less money, their roads and cars are crappier, their shopping malls are ten years behind ours (yes, there are exceptions, but they are the exception, so please don't bother pointing them out), their theme parks suck compared to ours, they make less money, they buy less crap, they have 1/10 the number of restaurants that we do, it just goes on and on. I have twice as much $ under the hood of my Honda Civic than most of the people in the world make in a year. If you take out the handful of wealthier countries, then I have more than they make in 10-20 years. No other country has the resources to field a single carrier battle group comparable to one of ours, we have 12 of them. Our standard of living is unimaginable compared to the most of the rest of the world. When I lived in Turkey, one of my neighbors was the vice-president of Turkey, we lived in the same neighborhood, and that was on a military enlisted man's housing allowance. The reason that the military industrial complex runs our country is because our level of consumption demands it.

What can we do about it? That's easy, stop consuming, and it will all collapse. I'd recommend going Amish, that will pretty effectively cut you out of the consumer loop, plus you'll just laugh when gas hits $10/gallon. You won't have phones, TV's, cars, computers, Internet, Big Macs, Diet Coke, $100 sneakers, or any of that crap, plus you will be exempt from military service.



P.S. - I already have a shack in the woods (actually a small 2-bedroom house), way out past where the road ends, deep in the mountains of West Virginia, as does most of the rest of my family. If you try to go there and the resident hillbillies don't know you, then they will shoot you.

[stu]

Didn't you all watch the show on the Freemason's last night on TLC? They said that all the Satan stuff was bullshit created by that French author with the Pen Name.

[DrJones]

Didn't you all watch the show on the Freemason's last night on TLC? They said that all the Satan stuff was bullshit created by that French author with the Pen Name.

Or that's what they want you to believe...

[Seved]

Rmc, thank you for the great and detailed post.

Sorry this is going to be un-organized, i am pissed with some shit going on with my girlfriend and I don't feel like making a elaborate post right now.

The first part of your post, This is what I got from it, please correct me if I am wrong.

1. It is ok for big business and rich people to run our lives.
2. It is ok that we goto war because we feel that we are right.
3. Don't worry about elections since it doesn't matter what us as a public think.
4. Screw the constitution and Bill of Rights, I mean our country was founded on it.
5. It is ok to implement "Anti-Terriorist" acts and bills that do destroy our constituional rights.
6. It is ok for the government to perform secret and unwarrented wiretaps and phone records. Because well they are the government.
7. When you speak of WMD as a excuse but it is ok, because we agree on it.... Who the hell is 'we'? 'We' as in the top government officals?
8. Since you admit to a certain point that they controll everything, since when did 'we' ever come into the equation?
9. What proof do you have that planes did bring down the WTC.

Actually fuck all of those, just explain me this.

On September 11th Norad was practicing drills of crashing planes into buildings. America is the strongest military force in the world. How the how can only 4 planes be covering the entire east coast. How the hell, can we let 2 planes hit the world trade center, and rougly an hour later have a plane hit the pentagon? Why 3 months before the attacks Dick Cheney was givin the only authority to have the power to shoot down planes.

Here is a timelime. Please go over it, and then explain to me why it is ok for these people to run and control our lives. Read it over carefully, from what I got (I could be very wrong) out of your post, is that, don't worry what the government does, beacuse it won't affect us.
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&startpos=1100#a903

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&startpos=1100#a903

[Seved]

Didn't you all watch the show on the Freemason's last night on TLC? They said that all the Satan stuff was bullshit created by that French author with the Pen Name.

Stu, Do you know what the Bohemian grove is?

Watch this video!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1358319439993514946&q=alex+jones

They worship a 40 foot tall Owl.

Now please, take out a 1 dollar bill. On the front of the dollar you will see George. now, look in the top right corner. You will see the 1. Now, if you look just right of the second from the top leaf in the little grove that boarders the 1 you will find somethign quite odd. Take a Magnifying glass if you have one, and you will see, sure enough, an owl.

This may be some huge coincidence (sp i know) but please watch the footage.

I had a terrible day, tomorrow, I will go into much further detail about aspects that require attention. That is why my last 2 post won't probally make sense.

[Zach]

where the hell do you see an owl?
http://www.wireless-dimensions.com/signs/Promo%20Dollar%20front.jpg

edit: i think i see what you are talking about, however if you do look under a microscope, you can see that it is a spider, not an owl.

[rmcdaniels]

Rmc, thank you for the great and detailed post.

Sorry this is going to be un-organized, i am pissed with some shit going on with my girlfriend and I don't feel like making a elaborate post right now.

The first part of your post, This is what I got from it, please correct me if I am wrong.

1. It is ok for big business and rich people to run our lives.

"OK" is too subjective. Big business and rich people run our lives because we let them. We let them run our lives because we have become comfortable with the results (prosperity and security) that we have achieved in unprecedented abundance from rampant capitalism. I think that Schumpeter called it correctly back in 1942, values like delyaed gratification, personal responsibility, and other social factors that promote entrepreneurship are on the wane. We have instituted a welfare state and placed restrictions on entrepreneurial enterprise that are leading us to the inevitable result, a corporate run socialist state.

I know people who operate outside of that system, they carry no debt, they pay cash, they ask for no favors, work hard, save and invest, are sensible and prosperous. They are few and far between. If wewere all were like that, then we wouldn't have the problems that we have now, but as a nation we aren't. The public wants instant gratification and a free ride, just as the government does. There are entities that are supplying us with what we want, but there's a price to be paid. Big business and rich people give us what we want, so we let them run our lives. Is it "ok"? Apparently it's what a tradeoff that most people are willing to make, so apparently it is. I could give so many examples of this, but it's late.


2. It is ok that we goto war because we feel that we are right.

How about you don't misquote me and I won't misquote you. We go to war to protect our national interests. Right and wrong has nothing to do with it. If war was about right and wrong, then the world would have intervened when Saddam commenced his campaign of genocide via chemical weapons against the Kurdish civilian population. Everyone knew about it, there were lots of pictures taken of the results of nerve gas on Kurdish towns, they're easy to find if you look; pictures of the dead contorted bodies of women futilely clutching the twisted corpses of their children, I've seen them, and nobody did anything. War has nothing at all to do with right and wrong. We sugar-coat it for the public with excuses like WMD's, which was an easy one because Saddam was telling other countries in the region that he had WMD's so he could intimidate them, we just had to use the intel that Saddam himself was putting out. I think the government knew that he was full of crap, but it doesn't really matter. If taking him out is in our national interest, then we do it. Right and wrong don't mean a thing to any major national government.



3. Don't worry about elections since it doesn't matter what us as a public think.

Bingo, you and I have as much say about the really important stuff that goes on as our pets do. Regional issues I can see having an effect on, but the big national policy issues are not left up to the people. That would be bad for business, especially since most people are short-sighted, selfish idiots. To get to an office as high as the presidency, you have to make the deals with the appropriate influence peddlers to make sure you get the votes. Those deals make sure that you won't rock the boat too much.


4. Screw the constitution and Bill of Rights, I mean our country was founded on it.

They are already screwed, and they have been for some time. Between our national court system and big money interests, the Constitution and Bill of Rights don't have any bearing on how the country is run. Just because I can see it and acknowledge it doesn't mean I'm happy about it, but I honestly think it's too late to do anything about it.

5. It is ok to implement "Anti-Terriorist" acts and bills that do destroy our constituional rights.

See #4, #1, #3. It doesn't matter if it's "ok" or not. It's done, and it's been done since before I was born. If the average American gave a crap about their constitutional rights, then maybe something could be done, but I'd bet most people would agree to sign over their protection from unwarranted search and seizure for $5000 if we approached them the right way about it. then we could pay them in crisp new Federal Reserve notes:rofl:

6. It is ok for the government to perform secret and unwarrented wiretaps and phone records. Because well they are the government.

Again, it's been happening since before I was born (and that was a long time ago). It's a done deal and nobody cares enough to undo it. Wiretaps and phone records are the simple stuff, back when I hunted deserters for the military we had data mining resources that were incredible, and not just with regards to military personnel, civilians too. Every aspect of your life is tracked, collated, indexed, cross-referenced, and recorded, all in real-time, and available to any federal resuorce that wants to highlight you in the system.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
-------Thomas Jefferson

Eternal vigilance is way too much work for most people today, and the loss of freedom has been a pretty comfortable process so far, so I think that the country is just going to go with the flow


7. When you speak of WMD as a excuse but it is ok, because we agree on it.... Who the hell is 'we'? 'We' as in the top government officals?

See #2

8. Since you admit to a certain point that they controll everything, since when did 'we' ever come into the equation?

We are the ones that gave them control. Do we use MS Windows? Have we used credit cards? Have we financed a house or car? Do we work at a large corporation? do we buy imported mass-produced consumer goods? Do we eat major name-brand food products? Have we accepted any form of government assistance (student loans count)? Do we enjoy a standard of living that dwarfs anything else that exists in the world?


9. What proof do you have that planes did bring down the WTC.

Neither you nor I is qualified to prove or disprove that. For every qualified person you find to say it happened one way, I can find another to say it happened another way. Unless somebody comes forward with some incontrovertible evidence, then it's all just speculation.



Actually fuck all of those, just explain me this.

On September 11th Norad was practicing drills of crashing planes into buildings. America is the strongest military force in the world. How the how can only 4 planes be covering the entire east coast. How the hell, can we let 2 planes hit the world trade center, and rougly an hour later have a plane hit the pentagon? Why 3 months before the attacks Dick Cheney was givin the only authority to have the power to shoot down planes.

Here is a timelime. Please go over it, and then explain to me why it is ok for these people to run and control our lives. Read it over carefully, from what I got (I could be very wrong) out of your post, is that, don't worry what the government does, beacuse it won't affect us.
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&startpos=1100#a903

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&startpos=1100#a903

That looks like a typical clusterfuck to me. It was the first attack of it's kind and we were unprepared because none of us could imagine it (not really, we could speculate about it, but it wasn't really real until it happened). Agencies did not coordinate effectively and people didn't take what was happening seriously, then tried to cover their asses after the fact. It's a tragedy, but that's about it.

If you'd like to see some real government shenanigans in action, then look at TWA Flight 800. I was responsible for a military air traffic control station at the time and got a bird's-eye view of the entire thing. Based on one thing that I saw, I'm pretty sure I know what happened.

[exciv2000]

I know people who operate outside of that system, they carry no debt, they pay cash, they ask for no favors, work hard, save and invest, are sensible and prosperous. They are few and far between. If wewere all were like that, then we wouldn't have the problems that we have now, but as a nation we aren't.

I guess I work outside the system then. Other than my mortgage, I carry no debt and have plenty saved and invested.

[Zach]

If you'd like to see some real government shenanigans in action, then look at TWA Flight 800. I was responsible for a military air traffic control station at the time and got a bird's-eye view of the entire thing. Based on one thing that I saw, I'm pretty sure I know what happened.

and........... what did happen?

[rmcdaniels]

and........... what did happen?

I believe that a U.S. Aegis destroyer shot down an international 747 full of passengers to Europe, then the government covered it up. Google TWA Flight 800 for more details.

[Seved]

OK, rmc, Sorry for misquoting you, like I said... I wasn't really all there.

Now, mind you, I am only 20 years old, I could probally be your kid.
Now, I do respect you as a person, and I do respect your opionions.

So let me fully understand what you are saying in order to correctly answer your questions.

Are you implying that since we no longer have control, and the Big businesses that run our lives has already taken place and that it is to late to fix?

Now, shouldn't we as American citizens be able to voice out and show the corruptness of the government? As American's isn't it our duty to with hold the constituion? As American's isn't it our duty to fight enemies foriegn and DOMESTIC?

Now you mentioned Saddam, and his cruel actions. Don't get me wrong, what Saddam did was horrible, but do you think America would never commit such atrocities?(Sp?)

Please view this Video
**WARNING: Very strong and graphic material, if you have a weak stomach do not watch**

Have you ever heard of Fallujah?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1134673789364675735&q=Fallujah

Another thing... Just say, please bare with me that the attacks on 9/11 were a inside job, is the killing of 3k+ citizens just?

I mean, look at the post before this one. In your honest opinion and based on the evidence that you saw with your own two eyes, America attacked a civilian plane! Are you going to tell me that this isn't wrong? Or that these attacks can continue to happen, because, well to be honest, we cannot do anything about it?

I am teh suck with quoting so I will just copy and paste.

If taking him out is in our national interest, then we do it.
-- If arresting American citizens and giving them no phone call and no right to an attorny is for National interest, should we allow them do it? NO! But in the Patriot Act II (Sounds like a Mel Gibson movie) it is legal for them to hold you for 90 days with no phone call and no right to an attorney. You represent your self.

You agreed with me that it is not right, where me and you don't agree is that it is to late. I mean, did Paul Revere not warn the country because it was to late, the British were already comming? No he got up on his damn horse and he warned the country. Maybe it is to late, but what have I got to lose in trying? For everyone one person that hears the truth, that could possibly turn into 50 and so on and so on.

So what can we do?

We can raise hell! More and more people everyday are are starting to understand the truth. You think it is to late for a revolt against the government? Isn't that one of the reasons our fathers came to America, was to escape the rule of the King?

I donno, maybe I am just to young to understand the whole concept. But I do know one thing, It is better to fight for what you believe, then not to fight at all.

[rmcdaniels]

I guess I work outside the system then. Other than my mortgage, I carry no debt and have plenty saved and invested.

I used to be like that, I'm working back towards it now. If you don't mind sharing, what's your age, marital status, and number of kids? I'm finding that at different stages of my life it's a lot easier to be fiscally responsible.

[rmcdaniels]

OK, rmc, Sorry for misquoting you, like I said... I wasn't really all there.

NP, I just don't want to get in a pissing contest. I may not agree with you on some things, but I do enjoy discussing them.



Now, mind you, I am only 20 years old, I could probally be your kid.
Now, I do respect you as a person, and I do respect your opionions.

Thanks, I'll be 40 in a few months, and age/experience does change your perspective, although I was a complete idiot at 20, I only thought about getting wasted, getting laid, and going sailing.



So let me fully understand what you are saying in order to correctly answer your questions.

Are you implying that since we no longer have control, and the Big businesses that run our lives has already taken place and that it is to late to fix?

It's never too late to fix, I just don't believe that the people have the will to fix it. The state has already firmly established itself as the caretaker of the populace, which is a good indicator IMO that we're already well down the road to Socialism. I think that if Hillary Clinton gets elected President, then we will make some more tremendous strides in that direction, and I don't see anything standing in her way.



Now, shouldn't we as American citizens be able to voice out and show the corruptness of the government? As American's isn't it our duty to with hold the constituion? As American's isn't it our duty to fight enemies foriegn and DOMESTIC?

But you don't have to fullfill any of your duties to be an American. It's something that's given to people at birth and that they are never required to earn. Most of them never make any effort to uphold their duties as citizens. If it were up to me people wouldn't be allowed to vote or hold public office unless they were qualified as citizens. That qualification could be met by volunteering for military service, and possibly in other ways, but it would have to demonstrate that a citizen was willing to put their life and livelihood on the line because they care about their country. Only then would they be allowed to become it's caretakers. Other citizens would be free to work and contribute and enjoy the benefits of our society, but only as second-class citizens, they would have no say in our government. If being an American citizen is a birthright that requires nothing in the way of personal commitment, then it is a meaningless distinction. If you fight oppression as a citizen, then by and large your fellow citizens will not back you up, and most of them will rat you out for a pittance. We're not quite up to Russian KGB standards yet, but we also don't have the economic imperative of stocking the Gulags with workers either, so our new Socialism should be a lot more bearable than theirs was.

(P.S.- And while I'm building the utopian society, all healthy and able-bodied first-class citizens would be required to carry sidearms in public and act as a national militia and assist the police with maintaining public order)




Now you mentioned Saddam, and his cruel actions. Don't get me wrong, what Saddam did was horrible, but do you think America would never commit such atrocities?(Sp?)

Please view this Video
**WARNING: Very strong and graphic material, if you have a weak stomach do not watch**

Have you ever heard of Fallujah?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1134673789364675735&q=Fallujah


My point was that right and wrong have nothing to do with war. It's all about accomplishing the mission objectives. Fallujah is nothing compared to the hundreds of thousands that died in Somalia and the seven-figure death count from the democide in Yugoslavia. In an ideal world mission objectives could be accomplished while only harming combatants, but the world that we live in is far from ideal. Enemies hide behind women and children, knowing the innocents will be slaughtered, because they know the death of the innocents will inflame the masses, so they intentionally set up the women and children to be killed. I think the distinction bewteen us and Saddam is that he was intentionally committing genocide, something that I hope the US will stop short of in the pursuit of it's national interests. Fallujah was an insurgent suppression operation in a populated residential area, tragedy was inevitable, but we still had mission objectives to accomplish. Does that make us good guys? No, but I don't think that it makes us monsters. I've been involved in military operations in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Somalia. Innocent people died, our people died, and we accomplished our objectives. We were good people doing a dirty job that was arguably necessary in every case.



Another thing... Just say, please bare with me that the attacks on 9/11 were a inside job, is the killing of 3k+ citizens just?

I'm not going to address that until it is proven that the attacks were an inside job. I don't think the debate would be meaningful. I'd be happy to discuss using the citizens of the major coastal metropolitan areas of California as unwitting test subjects to assess the effectiveness of our mechanisms for the dispersal of weaponized bio-agents, sickening and killing many of them in the process. That's been well documented if you'd like to research it.



I mean, look at the post before this one. In your honest opinion and based on the evidence that you saw with your own two eyes, America attacked a civilian plane! Are you going to tell me that this isn't wrong? Or that these attacks can continue to happen, because, well to be honest, we cannot do anything about it?


That was an accident during a combat systems testing exercise. The purppose in bringing it up was to show that a government cover-up of a screwup that kills a bunch of innocent civilians isn't indicative of malicious intent. Was it wrong? Absolutely. Did we screw up on 9/11? Absolutely. Is the government hiding their screwups? Absolutely. Is the cover-up indicative that the attack was perpetrated by the government in order to further their internal agendas? Speculation.



I am teh suck with quoting so I will just copy and paste.

If taking him out is in our national interest, then we do it.
-- If arresting American citizens and giving them no phone call and no right to an attorny is for National interest, should we allow them do it? NO! But in the Patriot Act II (Sounds like a Mel Gibson movie) it is legal for them to hold you for 90 days with no phone call and no right to an attorney. You represent your self.

You agreed with me that it is not right, where me and you don't agree is that it is to late. I mean, did Paul Revere not warn the country because it was to late, the British were already comming? No he got up on his damn horse and he warned the country. Maybe it is to late, but what have I got to lose in trying? For everyone one person that hears the truth, that could possibly turn into 50 and so on and so on.

So what can we do?

We can raise hell! More and more people everyday are are starting to understand the truth. You think it is to late for a revolt against the government? Isn't that one of the reasons our fathers came to America, was to escape the rule of the King?

I donno, maybe I am just to young to understand the whole concept. But I do know one thing, It is better to fight for what you believe, then not to fight at all.



The problem is that our society is rotten from the top all the way down. that banking movie you linked to earlier has some excellent information on the subject (good link incidentally, thanks). We want everything now and we want to pay for it later, if at all, and there are entities that are willing to perovide that for us in return for our freedom to control our lives. The BATF charter has allowed it to do the things the Patriot acts allow for many years, and some that are even worse. Abuses been reported in the news. There was a time when the news would have triggered a national uprising, buy nothing came of it.

What can you do? Take care of yourself. I believe that the country needs a serious hurting before it will wake up to what's going on. I don't think that the people will listen to reason and take the hard route to getting government and industry off of their backs. It's a lot like the addiction cycle that I have seen my friends go through with cocaine, they need to bottom out before they will help themselves, no amount of help before then will cure them. Here are some ideas:

Borrow no money. Only use banks as a convenient repository for minor funds for day-to-day expenses. No credut cards, car loans, mortgages, student loans, etc.

Accept nothing from the government. Don't work for them, only give them what you have to by law.

Don't buy from major conglomerates. Buy local products from individual-owned businesses. Example: I can buy meat and produce from my local grocery store or from a family owned farm about 27 miles outside of town. It's more inconvenient and expensive to buy from the farm, but I get much better quality (no genetic modification, antibiotics, artificial feed or fertilizers, etc.) and my money goes to the right people IMO. Very few people go to the extra effort to buy from the farm. They will buy what's cheaper and easier if it kills them, which it eventually will.


Prepare yourself, again the banking video gives you some clues. Do not depend on the government to keep you safe, healthy, and prosperous, because that may not be in the government's best interests at some point in time, if it isn't already.


There's more, but you seem like you can do the reading yourself. There's lots of information about how government and industry (if there's a distinction between the two) is enslaving the populace. It's just easier for most people to be slaves than free, and there's not much we can do about it if that's what they want. It's not like it's a secret evil agenda, the rich and powerful are making enslavement available to the people, and the people are volunteering for it. I say let them have it, it's the only way most of them will learn, and some of them will probably be happier as slaves.

[Seved]

rmc, Thank you once again for the detailed post.

I believe i clearly see where we differ. Your belief, let it happen, it already is and we should face the consequences from an event to take place.

My belief is that we should stop it now in order to prevent these kind of events and downfall of our constituion.

Back to the national security thing, Fallujah was just a tiny example.

It just does not make sense to me, to fight, continue to support, and uphold the governments movments when clearly they are not all for national security.

Maybe it is to late, but it is still worth fighting for. Do you back down from someone that is a foot bigger and 60lbs stronger then you? No you go in, take some blows, and you may get beat. But the people who witness your actions and truley see that you are fighting for what is right, what is giving in our constitution, what WE as AMERICAN CITIZENS SHOULD DO, they will see that you may just be right. In addition, they then may go ask questions for themseleves.

I am not sure how many times I am going to say this but, ASK QUESTIONS, go do research, if you (everyone) want to prove me wrong, please do, but do it the right way. Go find out what is happening to America this very day and coem the conclusions for your self. I can only lead you to the door, you have to open it.

[DrJones]

Here's a question you should all ask yourselves.

The Gov't says it would be very very hard protecting the border of Mexico.

That seems true, it's a big border and everything.

However, we do have some amazing border protecting abilities. Want proof? Area 51. No one get's close to that place, and if you do try you will be shot.

It's not as large as the US/Mexico border, but it is a big open space. As soon as you cross it, they know.

Whe are are able to protect the border, but we choose not too.

[rmcdaniels]

There are different kinds of fighting. If it's one person that is bigger and stronger, then that's what marksmanship is for. I think our situation is more akin to the Nazi occupation of France, except with an Orwellian "1984" layer thrown on top. The whole infrastructure is rotten to the core, all of the people in power are an active part of the problem, and they have brainwashed most of the populace. the French Resistance didn't try a frontal assault for a reason.

Paul Revere rode to warn a vigilant populace who sprang into action to protect their freedoms. His modern equivalent would be riding to warn a bunch of Hurricane Katrina survivors who filed fraudulent claims to get extra FEMA money and then promptly blew it all on hookers and booze in the communities that invited them in. Oh yeah, and the invaders aren't just landing, they'v been here since before most of were born and are in full control of our national infrastructure.

I think I'm just a lot more pessimistic than you, plus I'm skeptical of both sides. I say roll with it, fix your own situation, and work on it from a grassroots level. You can only help those who want to help themselves.

[rmcdaniels]

Whe are are able to protect the border, but we choose not too.

It is not in our national interests to secure the border. There's a lot easier ways to stop illegals than securing the border.

[exciv2000]

I used to be like that, I'm working back towards it now. If you don't mind sharing, what's your age, marital status, and number of kids? I'm finding that at different stages of my life it's a lot easier to be fiscally responsible.

29, married, no kids yet.
I've been investing money since I was 14. It's all about delayed gratification.

[rmcdaniels]

I was in good shape back then too when I was DINK. The economic downturn after 9/11 pretty much wiped me out though. I had just gotten a new job with a huge paycheck and leveraged myself to the hilt, got my wife pregnant again so she wasn't working, figured I'd pay it off when my options matured. Oh well, live and learn, hopefully I'll be dug out of that hole I got myself in inside the next 1-2 years. I just have to stop spending money on the car.

[Weston]

Here's a question you should all ask yourselves.

The Gov't says it would be very very hard protecting the border of Mexico.

That seems true, it's a big border and everything.

However, we do have some amazing border protecting abilities. Want proof? Area 51. No one get's close to that place, and if you do try you will be shot.

It's not as large as the US/Mexico border, but it is a big open space. As soon as you cross it, they know.

Whe are are able to protect the border, but we choose not too.

:werd: We can invade and occupy the Middle East, but we cannot even secure our own border!? I think not.

[Seved]

More on the border. Listen to this audio clip.
http://www.infowars.com/articles/immigration/fallacy_bush_border_stance.htm

Parts of the fallacy of the Border protection.

[rmcdaniels]

For you Seved, how the constitution was destroyed:


http://s115271005.onlinehome.us/Karnak/The%20Temple%20of%20Karnak%20is%20now%20out%20of%2 0print.htm

[Weston-work]

I was looking at some stuff about water powered cars (interesting how the main guy behind it was poisoned a few years ago), and happened to come across some NWO info on this website: http://www.hydropowercar.com/content.php?content.14

[Seved]

I am bumping this Motha Fucka! Lately I havn't found much new related articles, news clips, and information. However, I have put some new things together!

Ok first off, The World Trade Centers. I can't believe I didn't show this film!
This is a two part film of how the WTC's were constructed.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=aZS5a7je5Vs (Part 1)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Fm7B1vvkXnQ (Part 2)


This is a great film (It's in Italian) only about 5 minutes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxNKuhhVo2U&feature=Views&page=3&t=t&f=b

Good Old George Bush saying he saw the First Plane hit the WTC. Now, if anyone else here on the forum saw the first plane crash on live TV, please raise your hand. No hands? That is right! No one saw the first plane on live TV when it happened! Watch this video.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4F6kouXg40Q

Memory: Remember It Right?
Newsweek
Sept. 20 issue

- It's well documented that President George W. Bush was in a Florida classroom on 9/11 when chief of staff Andrew Card told him a second plane had hit the World Trade Center. But how did Bush learn about the first crash?
Two of his recollections are similar, but factually impossible. On Dec. 4, 2001, and Jan. 5, 2002, Bush told audiences he saw the first plane hit the tower on TV before he entered the classroom. But he couldn't have seen it; nobody saw it live on TV. Between those recountings, on Dec. 20, Bush told The Washington Post that Karl Rove told him. This isn't to say the president is a fabulist. He's just exhibiting a prominent example of a common memory glitch, says UCLA psychology fellow Dan Greenberg, who published a paper this summer in the journal Applied Cognitive Psychology called "President Bush's False Flashbulb Memory of 9/11/01."
Greenberg says this is more evidence that "flashbulb memories"—major events people remember "like it was yesterday"—are not as indelible as experts thought. (This was proved in a four-year study after the 1986 Challenger explosion, when witnesses dramatically altered their memories of the disaster.) Greenberg thinks Bush saw the first-tower crash footage replayed so often that it seemed as if he had seen it as it happened. Greenberg struggles to explain why Bush, having remembered events differently in his second recounting, went back to the original version. The White House declined to comment.


Oh man!!! This is getting good everyone!
From Rick Speigel: 911Eyewitness

"This centuries Zapruder film of 9/11 and seven laws of science prove treason, fraud and murder." 911 Eyewitness "Hoboken"

Here are the first 14 links with short description from the new "Hoboken".

NOVA cointelpro CG of towers
A debunking of bunk.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=27...5060242&pl=true

Collapse review for WTC1,2,7
Yikes, 3 metal and cement buildings make history in so many ways.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=83...0650110&pl=true

Cloud of Dust at base of WTC1
You breathe that shite?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2638975558038550089

Pyroclastic Flow at the WTC
Tell me you don't see it?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1381525012075538113

Projectile Motion WTC1 with cannon ball
Whew! I saw those things flying out and something blew them out.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5467345603465188927

Paper and Powder debris proves they used nukes
It is a compelling argument.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5751701357568296726

Pentagon Helicopter
What is that all about?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=938919443282661943

South Tower Collapse Detonation Zone
Amazing, just as the firemen discribed.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4264603551538739510

Freefall Speed Experiment for WTC7
Man, come on? Really?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4322650841860671469

WTC1 Thermonuclear Hydrogen Bomb
The scientist agree as much as we find it hard to face.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4731051210315608217

FEMA report Siesmic Data proves demolition
Nice job.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7354443426036824741

3D Seismic Fingerprinit proves controlled demolition
43 Billion lost? Or paid out?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8130893393520610003

600 foot ejection of 100 ton steel sections
Falling debris?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1807467434260776490

Evidence of thermonuclear explosions CNN producer
Guess we are far from alone.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=879087185358553034

8th Floor Explosion Eyewitness
Nothing says it like a real person.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6561716823329157279

By the way traces of radioactivity were found the next day at "ground zero". So well named.

Ok I have a crazy amount more of information and such. I will give time for those to go over the information and respond.

Wake up people, it's right in front of your face.

P.S. http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=611

That is very interesting.

[Zach]

the loose change article will be an interesting read, as i think i see some good points there, however some of the links you posted are absolutely stupid and can be proved wrong with common sense.

1.) paper and powder proves they used nukes.

Thats the dumbest thing i have ever heard. when a building that size collapses, its going to have to push out all of the air inside of it. that amount of wind could easily blow out an entire level worth of paper out the windows. he also asks why the fire didnt destroy all the papers, which is just retarded. werent there only fires on 25 floors? im sure all of the other floors that werent in the fire didnt have any paper in them at all.:rolleyes:

2.) I think it was in one of your other posts, about the puffs of dust and debris that was ejected floors below where the collapse had reached, which some people took as explosive devices planted in the building.

Again, anyone who has taken any sort of physical science class, or physics, knows that the transfer of energy in a solid object is almost instantaneous.

Try it for yourself. hold a straw in your fist vertically (semi tight), and then with your other hand hit the top of the straw with your palm. did the whole straw collapse before the bottom of it moved a little bit? No it didnt, as soon as your palm came in contact with it, one end of the straw transfered the energy to the other end, and the bottom of the straw moved.

What does it mean? well, when the top portion of the WTC towers collapsed, the upper portion of the tower hitting the floors below it immediately transfered the force through the building. what you saw in the puffs of smoke, was the portion of the building that had given up before the floors above it. its all about the transfer of energy.

Thats all i have for now, ill maybe go back over stuff later and respond more.

[Seved]

The following information is long and will take much time to go over.

But if you don't want to go through all of that, just please watch the first two videos.

MIT Engineer.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1822764959599063248

Edit: http://www.911podcasts.com/files/video/Steven_Jones-UVSC_February_1_2006/BYU_Professor_Steven_E_Jones-UVSC_February_1_2006_911_9-11_Lecture_WTC-7_911TruthSeekers.org.wmv

Thanks to cb_brooklyn for posting this over at http://www.mypetgoat.tv/forums/

-Paper for Peer Review:

“Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse? “
By Steven E. Jones
Department of Physics and Astronomy
Brigham Young University
Provo, UT 84604
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html


Professor Steven E. Jones provided an invited seminar open to the public at Utah Valley State College in Orem, Utah, on February 1, 2006: "9/11 Revisited: Scientific and Ethical Questions”

An MP3 of the Two Hour Seminar (61MB): http://tinyurl.com/974zy
PowerPoint Slideshow JPEGS (4.6MB ZIP file): http://tinyurl.com/95bht

Review of Seminar:
“Prof. Jones' Utah 9/11 Seminar - Feb.1, 2006”
http://www.gnn.tv/blogs/12675/Prof_Jones_U...inar_Feb_1_2006

Daily Herald - Central Utah's Newspaper:
“Questions remain from 9/11 report, professor says”
http://www.heraldextra.com/content/view/163875/3/



-KUTV (Salt Lake City CBS affiliate) - Thursday, November 10, 2005
“Collapse or Implosion: BYU Professor Has Theory About 9/11 Attacks”
Video: http://kutv.com/topstories/local_story_314234334.html

-Deseret Morning News - Thursday, November 10, 2005
“Y. professor thinks bombs, not planes, toppled WTC”, by Elaine Jarvik
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,635160132,00.html

-MSNBC's 'The Situation' - Tuesday, November 15, 2005
“Professor believes planes didn't cause all the damage around the WTC”
Video: http://www.911blogger.com/2005/11/byu-prof...n-jones-on.html

-TRIBUNE-REVIEW - Sunday, November 20, 2005
“Jonesing on conspiracy theories”, by Bill Steigerwald
http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review...d/s_395972.html



OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT REPORTS AND CRITIQUES


-Official NIST Report: http://wtc.nist.gov/NISTNCSTAR1CollapseofTowers.pdf
-NIST Report Critique: http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/nist/index.html
-Official FEMA Report: http://www.fema.gov/library/wtcstudy.shtm
-FEMA Report Critique: http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/official/fema.html
-Official 9/11 Commission Report: http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/index.htm
-9/11 Commission Report Critique: http://911research.wtc7.net/post911/commission/report.html



INFORMATION ABOUT WTC BUILDING 7


-Official NIST Report for WTC 7 - pg 6 – “Working Collapse Hypothesis”
“An initial local failure at the lower floors (below Floor 13) of the building due to fire and/or debris induced structural damage of a critical column (the initiating event), which supported a large span floor bay with an area of about 2,000 ft2”
http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/WTC%20Part%20IIC%...pse%20Final.pdf

-Official FEMA Report on WTC 7 – Chapter 5, pg 31
“Loss of structural integrity was likely a result of weakening caused by fires on the 5th to 7th floors. The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this time. Although the total diesel fuel on the premises contained massive potential energy, the best hypothesis has only a low probability of occurrence. Further research, investigation, and analyses are needed to resolve this issue.” http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_ch5.pdf

-Building 7, the Untold Story: http://911research.wtc7.net/talks/b7/index.html


-WTC lease holder, Larry Silverstein, commenting on the collapse of Building 7 in the PBS documentary "America Rebuilds", which aired in September of 2002:

“I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse.”
Video: http://www.911blogger.com/files/video/wtc7_pbs.WMV


-In the same documentary, America Rebuilds, a clean up worker at ground zero uses the term "pull" when preparing for the controlled demolition of Building 6: (Use of the word “pull” as slang for “demolish”)

Unidentified Construction Worker: "Hello? Oh, we're getting ready to pull building six."

Luis Mendes, NYC Dept of Design and Construction: "We had to be very careful how we demolished building six. We were worried about the building six coming down and then damaging the slurry walls, so we wanted that particular building to fall within a certain area.” Video: http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/video/wtc7/pull_wtc6.wmv


-Silverstein Answers WTC Building 7 Charges: Says "pull it" meant to evacuate firefighters, but there were no firefighters in the building. http://www.infowars.com/articles/sept11/si...tc7_charges.htm


-Reporter who witnessed the collapse of Building 7: "People started to run away from the scene [WTC7] and I turned in time to see what looked like a skyscraper implosion - looked like it had been done by a demolition crew - the whole thing just collapsing down on itself and another big huge plume of gray and white smoke shooting up into the air and then more of the smoke billowing up the street here... so that’s number one, number two, and now number seven that have come down from this explosion. "

Live report by 1010 WINS NYC News Radio on 9-11-01. This report can be heard in the documentary 911 Eyewitness (the film can be downloaded for free at this link: http://question911.com/links.php )


-Emergency worker who witnessed the collapse of Building 7: "We were watching the building [WTC7] actually ‘cuz it was on fire… the bottom floors of the building were on fire and… we heard this sound that sounded like a clap of thunder… turned around - we were shocked to see that the building was ah well it looked like there was a shockwave ripping through the building and the windows all busted out… it was horrifying… about a second later the bottom floor caved out and the building followed after that… we saw the building crash down all the way to the ground… we were in shock. "

Live report by 1010 WINS NYC News Radio on 9-11-01. This report can be heard in the documentary 911 Eyewitness (the film can be downloaded for free at this link: http://question911.com/links.php )


-Guns & Butter Radio interview - April 27th 2005:
Hosted by Bonnie Falkner
Guest: Indira Singh (Ground Zero Emergency Worker)

Bonnie: How long did you work as an emergency medical technician and exactly what is it that you were doing (at ground zero)?

Indira: ...when I got there we were setting up triage sites (at ground zero), close, very close to the area. The triage site that I was setting up was behind, well, to the east of Building 7 where Building 7 came down...
...we were setting up triages as close to the pile as possible… so what we were doing was setting up different kinds of stations… IV stations, cardiac stations, wound stations, burn stations ...just trying to have an organized space. What happened with that particular triage site is that pretty soon afternoon, after mid-day on 9/11 we had to evacuate that because they told us Building 7 was coming down... I do believe that they brought Building 7 down... By noon or one o'clock they told us we had to move from that triage site up to Pace University a little further away because Building 7 was going to come down or being brought down.

Bonnie: Did they actually use the word "brought" down and who was it that was telling you this?

Indira: The fire department... the fire department and they did use the word "we're going to have to bring it down."

The entire interview can be listened to at this link. The excerpts from above can be found approximately 10 minutes into the interview. http://tinyurl.com/7dww8


-Columbia Journalism Review – May/June 2003, by Thomas Franklin

Excerpt from an article written by award winning photographer, Thomas Franklin, who snapped the world famous photo of firemen raising the American flag at ground zero. In the article Franklin explains that all of ground zero was evacuated less than an hour before WTC 7 was demolished at approximately 5:20 pm on 9/11:

"Much of what happened to me on September 11 is a blur, but this moment I clearly remember: It was 4:45 p.m., and all the firemen and rescue workers were evacuating Ground Zero after word came that a third building -- WTC 7 -- was ready to fall. I had only a few frames left, and an entire day's worth of pictures to develop, so I prepared to head back to New Jersey." Link to entire article: http://archives.cjr.org/year/02/2/franklin.asp




A MIXTURE OF NEWS/FILM FOOTAGE AND NEW YORK TIMES QUOTES WHERE SPECIFIC REFERENCES TO BOMBS, EXPLOSIONS, AND CONTROLLED DEMOLITIONS ARE MADE

The video clips are of FDNY personnel, emergency workers, reporters, and witnesses.

The quotes are from the Official ‘Oral Histories’ Transcripts of FDNY personnel and emergency workers as conducted a few months after 9/11 by the WTC Task Force Interviewers and published in the New York Times:
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/html...es_full_01.html



- CBS News Anchor, Dan Rather, comments on the collapse of WTC Building 7: “Amazing, incredible pick your word. For the third time today, it’s reminiscent of those pictures we’ve all seen too much on television before, where a building was deliberately destroyed by well placed dynamite to knock it down.”
Video: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/w..._demolition.mpg



-NEW YORK TIMES ‘ORAL HISTORIES’ - WTC TASK FORCE INTERVIEWS
ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER STEPHEN GREGORY Interview Date: October 3, 2001
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/...HIC/9110008.PDF

pgs 14-16: I know I was with an officer from Ladder 146, a Lieutenant Evangelista, who ultimately called me up a couple of days later just to find out how I was. We both for whatever reason -- again, I don't know how valid this is with everything that was going on at that particular point in time, but for some reason I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have