The Road to 300 WHP

[Brian]

So that has become my goal. I think anything more and i'm just asking to repair my car on a daily basis.

Now for this setup i'm convinced that I will need some intenal work. Rods are not necessary IMO because the stockers have been shown to handle 400-450 hp just fine. The main weak point seems to be the pistons and their lack of detonation handling ability. So for internals i've decided on some forged pistons probably the same compression as stock to keep the engines natural squish and quench areas. Probably some better rod bolts because I hear those are the weakest part of the stock rods, and probably a block guard. Beyond that I may drop in a 1.8liter block at the same time which can be had for next to nothing.

That will be phase one. Phase two will simply be getting the air/water intercooler bolted up to the supercharger and turning up the boost to about 14 psi or so. I think that should be plenty for the 300 hp mark. Ohhh and some injectors, but no standalone for a while at least. I don't think this will cost more than 1500 or so for everything so it doesn't seem unreasonable.

What do you guys think?

[Brian]

http://www.crower.com/cat/import/honda/stroker.shtml

Mmmmmm also considering this :) doesn't cost much more than a 1.8 liter block and internals would.........

[TedR719]

Get the money and do it! There is only one way to find out...

[SC-MECHAM-WS6]

Go for it B!

Originally posted by 99SIVTEC
Phase two will simply be getting the air/water intercooler bolted up to the supercharger and turning up the boost to about 14 psi or so

air/water intercooler.... :)

[V8SpankR]

You really want 13s don't ya' Brian.

[B16crxTurbo]

That's the same mark I am trying to hit. I think I will be there after the build so I can crank the boost. Guess I just have to wait and see. I say go for it. I think that it's totally acheivable(sp?) with what you want to do. How much have you put down and at what psi so far?

I put down 215 at 7.5-8psi with my current set up.

[Brian]

I've never been able to dyno my current setup. Hector with 6 psi put down 200 to the wheels, so with 10 psi i'm guessing 230ish. The math i've done says that with the intercooler I should be able to get another 30 hp at my current boost level, so I don't think it will be too hard to hit 300 on 14 psi and either a 1.8liter or 2.0 liter stroked engine. Man that 2.0l would make some nice torque :D

[B20civic]

Originally posted by 99SIVTEC
Man that 2.0l would make some nice torque :D

I love my little 2.0 :D

[CSMsi311]

Good luck Brian... I talked to the turbo place in Golden again. and they said they can make the pipes for intercooler project, but they won't measure and fit the pipes for you. You'll have to give them the specs you want and they can make it for you. They said Paragon can help you get the right measurements for you.

Jason

[12seccivy]

good luck . brian..
remember!!
there's no replacement for displacement....
i love my little b20 vtec....
GO for it!!!!

butch

[RedRX]

Brian,

I don't know much about positive displacement superchargers, so please excuse my ignorance.

To make 300 whp at our altitude, you'd need to flow as much volume through your supercharger as a 365 wheel hp car at sea level. Do you know if anyone ASL has made that much power using the supercharger you're running?

Have you talked to anyone else who's maxed one of the JRSCs out? Or are you breaking new ground here? Also, are you shooting for 300 corrected or uncorrected hp ATW?

In any case, I'd like to see you attain your goal of 300 hp ATW -- that would be incredible. I'm just trying to see if you have data supporting your supercharger's ability to get you there -- which could save you some time and headaches.

Good luck!

[HONDA GHANDI]

I dont think Detonation is what causes piston failure in most boosted applications. Every piston that I have seen fail from overboost is a ring land break. Detonation punches huge holes in the tops of the pistons. To get the most HP out of your engine Detonation must be completly eliminated anyway. You are absolutly right in needing to get a stronger fored piston. Its the superior strength in the lands and more desirable quench area that gives it more detonation resistance. A set of stock shot peened rods can take a hell of a lot of abuse, way more than an unprotected block can stand. A guy I know with a turbo B18B has stock rods and SRP pistons runnig 16-18 psi all day long and never had a problem.

[Brian]

Dave,

I am treading on new ground in a few ways here. Now to answer your question about the positive displacement blower. As it sits at 10 psi the blower is spinning at about 10,000 rpm at my engines redline. The max safe blower speed according to eaton is around 16,000 rpm which would net me 22+ psi of boost. Now the reason no one runs that much boost is because of the lack of an intercooler. The outlet temps at 10 psi are around 170 degrees F. This number skyrockets at any higher boost level. This is why i'm remounting the supercharger at the front of the engine bay and routing it up to an air/water intercooler. Now this is uncharted ground for honda superchargers, but commonplace for the mazda miata guys. Their jackson racing superchargers are mounted at the front of the engine stock, and have an optional air/water intercooler. I believe that this combo will provide low enough outlet temps to make 14-16 psi and stay fairly close to ambient, or lower than ambient if I use ice in the IC.

The 300 WHP mark i'm shooting for will be corrected for sea level. Otherwise as you said I would have to make almost 400 WHP to equate to that up here which IMO is pushing things too hard for a daily driver.

[B16crxTurbo]

Do you just put the stock intake manifold on to make this work? How do you route the boost to IC? I havn't ever seen what this looks like, so I'm kinda having a hard time picturing it. Sounds like it would be sweet though. Would you have to have a seperate reservoir and pump for the water in the IC? I know Air/water IC's are WAY more efficient than air/air, but would an air/air work? I would think that might simplify things for you a little bit.

[Brian]

Basically it will be a turbo kit, but replace the turbo with the SC. It will mount in place of the ac condenser which puts it in alignment with the crank pulley to drive it :). I think it would work with an air/air IC, but from what I have looked at there would be a larger pressure drop with one which I can't afford with a positive displacement blower. I was looking at mecham's vortech air/water IC and it should fit nicely and be fairly compact.

[Brian]

Ih yeah and as you said I will basically take the jr intake manifold off and put the stocker back on which I think is a MUCH better design anyway. The jr manifold has that nasty 90 degree bend from the blower outlet to the runners.

[exciv2000]

Go for it Brian. Like I said before, let me know if you need help with the intercooler on "other" hondas like my EX. Oh, and I want 10 PSI NOW!!! I left you a message on your phone.

[RedRX]

Originally posted by 99SIVTEC
Dave,

I am treading on new ground in a few ways here. Now to answer your question about the positive displacement blower. As it sits at 10 psi the blower is spinning at about 10,000 rpm at my engines redline. The max safe blower speed according to eaton is around 16,000 rpm which would net me 22+ psi of boost. Now the reason no one runs that much boost is because of the lack of an intercooler. The outlet temps at 10 psi are around 170 degrees F. This number skyrockets at any higher boost level. This is why i'm remounting the supercharger at the front of the engine bay and routing it up to an air/water intercooler. Now this is uncharted ground for honda superchargers, but commonplace for the mazda miata guys. Their jackson racing superchargers are mounted at the front of the engine stock, and have an optional air/water intercooler. I believe that this combo will provide low enough outlet temps to make 14-16 psi and stay fairly close to ambient, or lower than ambient if I use ice in the IC.

The 300 WHP mark i'm shooting for will be corrected for sea level. Otherwise as you said I would have to make almost 400 WHP to equate to that up here which IMO is pushing things too hard for a daily driver.

Brian -- sounds very interesting, and given the information in this post, it seems like you've got a good chance of achieveing your goal.

Good luck -- I'll be looking forward to seeing you terrorize all kinds of cars at Bandi, including mine! :)

[Newsance]

I love how guys running 2 liter motors are using the "replacement for displacement" line. Thats mildly funny.

I take it this is currently a B16A motor? No way are you going to see 300 HP with a JRSC, not at this altitude. That supercharger is too small. A 1.8 isn't going to change that either.

If your B16A is running, spend the money on the 1.8 rebuild on camshafts and head work, along with vavlesprings, retainers, etc, to get it to wrap like crazy and flow as much as possible. With that, you might have a shot at hitting 300 hp with a JRSC, but you don't have a prayer by just turning up the boost.

[newt2]

He's working on an intercooler for it too...

FYI there's a blown Type R on Hona tech making 260 whp on 9psi non intercooled.

[Brian]

Originally posted by Newsance
I love how guys running 2 liter motors are using the "replacement for displacement" line. Thats mildly funny.

I take it this is currently a B16A motor? No way are you going to see 300 HP with a JRSC, not at this altitude. That supercharger is too small. A 1.8 isn't going to change that either.

If your B16A is running, spend the money on the 1.8 rebuild on camshafts and head work, along with vavlesprings, retainers, etc, to get it to wrap like crazy and flow as much as possible. With that, you might have a shot at hitting 300 hp with a JRSC, but you don't have a prayer by just turning up the boost.


Explain to me how a supercharger that is sized for 3.0liter plus engines is too small for a 1.6 liter? With a max blower speed of 16000 rpm it is more than capable of 20+ psi of boost. Now last time I checked it takes no where near that ammount of boost to make 300 wheel hp. Now modding the cams and valvetrain will do next to nothing for me as far as power. There are no supercharger specific cam grinds avaliable on the market and even if there were we're talking a few hp at most. The engine already redlines at 8000 which is plenty high especially for a boosted honda. A close friend is making 260 WHP out of a jrsc'd b18 with a b16 head. I'm looking at 40 more hp with another .2 liters of displacement, 8 more lbs of boost, and an intercooler.

[gjcivic]

I thought the miatas mounted the sc on the side of the motor???;)

[RedRX]

Originally posted by newt2
He's working on an intercooler for it too...

FYI there's a blown Type R on Hona tech making 260 whp on 9psi non intercooled.

Not to mention that Brian said he's shooting for 300 corrected wheel hp, which is roughly 240-245 uncorrected wheel hp at our altitude.

Brian -- I've never really looked much into superchargers, or how their flow rates are specified -- is your JRSC good for some CFM at 16000 rpm? If so, is that number stated anywhere?

Since it's a positive displacement device, it seems to me that the max flow number will tell us if it's even possible to make 300 corrected wheel hp, assuming you can keep the car from knocking.

[RedRX]

Originally posted by Newsance
I love how guys running 2 liter motors are using the "replacement for displacement" line. Thats mildly funny.

I take it this is currently a B16A motor? No way are you going to see 300 HP with a JRSC, not at this altitude. That supercharger is too small. A 1.8 isn't going to change that either.

If your B16A is running, spend the money on the 1.8 rebuild on camshafts and head work, along with vavlesprings, retainers, etc, to get it to wrap like crazy and flow as much as possible. With that, you might have a shot at hitting 300 hp with a JRSC, but you don't have a prayer by just turning up the boost.

Becuase the JRSC is a positive displacement device, the same amount of air is going to be "forced" (i.e., the air is going into the motor, no matter what) into both Brians engine and the "trick" 1.8 you're mentioning. In either case the same mass of air is being shoved into the engine, and air mass burned determines hp output, assuming adequate fuel is available.

In this case, the larger "trick" motor will yield reduced indicated intake manifold pressure, and presumably have a lesser tendency to knock. What it won't do is process any more air at a given rpm on the supercharger, and as I stated above, the amount of air burned determines hp output. Anyway, my point is that the supercharger will either flow enough air to make Brian's hp target, or it won't, assuming Brian is able to control knock -- regardless of whether he is running the 1.6L motor or the "trick" 1.8.

For these reasons, I think it's possible that Brian may hit his target, but doing so will be a function of the JRSC unit itself and Brian's ability to deal with knock -- not the fact that the motor only displaces 1.6L, or is using the stock head.

To address your other comment -- 2.0L engines can make incredible power. Nonetheless, you are right, in a way, becuase eventually anyone tuning a small displacement motor will run into limitations based on the quality of their fuel, and in that case, there's no replacement for displacement. Stated another way, at the limit, there is no way a 2L motor is ever going to make as much power as a 3L. And in fact, again at the limit, the 3L motor will make roughly 50% more hp than the 2L.

[Brian]

That has been my concern is blower sizing. Since it's positive displacement. The CFM it flows is linear. I believe for an m62 it's around 650 cfm. If I stick the blower on a 2.0 liter and spin it at the same speed it's at now it will produce less boost than on my 1.6l. To make up for that I will need the intercooler. I think there is enough headroom in the max speed I can spin the blower as long as like you said, I can controll knock. That will come down to the intercooler mainly which should be able to handle the temps i'm looking at. I'll put up the flow rates, outlet temps, ect in a separate post later tonight.

If this proves to be tto much for this supercharger I will simply go with an M90 which flows a couple hundred more cfm. I don't think I will need that though.

All and all I don't think 300 corrected hp on a 1.6 or the 2.0 liter will be that far of a stretch, but only time and my pocket book will tell :)

[Brian]

http://www.magnuson-products.com/mp62_4th_generation.htm

Here is the link to the magnuson/eaton flow rates ect....

[Brian]

Oh and the blower my car is using is sized for 2.0l to 4.0l vehicles :)

[HONDA GHANDI]

Are you going to get this under way by race season or work on it for next season? I still have some ideas for you when you start.

[RedRX]

Originally posted by 99SIVTEC
http://www.magnuson-products.com/mp62_4th_generation.htm

Here is the link to the magnuson/eaton flow rates ect....

Brian -- This is good stuff.

I backed into some numbers that might interest you. Based on my back-of-the-envelope calculations, it appeared that at our altitude you will need to flow about 480 CFM to make 246 hp ATW (~290 at the crank). But, unfortunately, that was before I added in the extra power that is necessary to run the blower itself.

Assuming the blower will be taking 45 hp to compress the air to 15 psi at 16,000 rpm, you will need to flow about 550 CFM to make 246 wheel hp (~335 at the crank).

According to the link you provided, the JRSC will flow about 550 CFM at 10 psi, which is good. However, from what you've said, you'll need more boost than that (I'm assuming 15 psi for guesstimation purposes) to hit your hp target, which means that the JRSC's max flow will be less than 550 CFM -- say, 500.

In any case, it appears that your hp goal won't be attainable with the MP62 blower, at least at our altitude. If my numbers are right, and again, this is just a guess, I think your blower will be done at about 220 uncorrected wheel hp, which will correct to about 275 -- and that is at the ragged edge.

Again, these are just ball park numbers. YMMV.

If I were in your shoes, and wanted 300 wheel hp, I'd consider a bigger SC, or, dare I say it, a turbo :eek:

[Brian]

I used to have a chart of the blower rpm vs boost level. I think for 15 psi of boost it was only going to be turning at 13000 rpm which might skew the numbers in our favor. Beyond that I plan on modifying the inlet and outlet of the blower to increase the flow rate. I also have a guy ready to time the SC. From the factory the rotor tollerances are fairly loose, but the closer to 120 degrees of timing you get the more efficient the SC becomes. Which formulas are you using to get your numbers? I would be interested in playing around with them. Do they take into account teh increase in HP from the intercooler? My rough math put me at a 20 or so hp gain at only 10 psi of boost because the outlet temps are pretty high on these things.

[RedRX]

Originally posted by 99SIVTEC
I used to have a chart of the blower rpm vs boost level. I think for 15 psi of boost it was only going to be turning at 13000 rpm which might skew the numbers in our favor. Beyond that I plan on modifying the inlet and outlet of the blower to increase the flow rate. I also have a guy ready to time the SC. From the factory the rotor tollerances are fairly loose, but the closer to 120 degrees of timing you get the more efficient the SC becomes. Which formulas are you using to get your numbers? I would be interested in playing around with them. Do they take into account teh increase in HP from the intercooler? My rough math put me at a 20 or so hp gain at only 10 psi of boost because the outlet temps are pretty high on these things.

Brian -- based on how your engine processes air, your supercharger may make 15 psi at any number of rpms. For example, your gauge might read 15 psi at 7,000 compressor rpm, 10,000, 13,000, 16,000, and any number of points in between. The indicated boost is not my concern here. What does concern me is the maximum flow of your SC, becuase that determines how much power you can make, at the limit.

Based on my simple calculations, you'll need to run your blower at 16,000 rpm, and even then, you won't make 300 corrected wheel hp. If you can't do it at 16,000 rpm, you're not going to do it at 13,000.

And I'm afraid to say that the intercooler isn't going to help you, with max power anyway. What it will do is help you control knock -- and to the extent it does, may allow you to make more power than you would otherwise. But ignoring knock for a second, the real limiting factor here is the amount of air the SC can pull through its inlet, which shows a maximum of 550 CFM at 10 psi and 16,000 rpm. Since you'll need to run more than 10 psi, your SC won't be able to pull 550 CFM through it's inlet, since, on the chart, CFM is inversely proportional to boost pressure -- so maybe you'll only pull 500 CFM, max, at 15 psi. And 500 CFM isn't enough air to make 300 corrected wheel hp, again, based on my simple calculation.

The hp you make is a function of the amount of air you can burn, plain an simple -- and the amount of air burned is equivalent to the amount of air being pulled through the SC inlet. At the boost pressure you need to run to make your hp, it appears that you're not going to be able to pull enough air through the inlet to do the job.

Here's how I determined you'll beed 550 CFM through the inlet to make 300 corrected wheel hp.

Uncorrected wheel hp = 300 * .82 = 246 (assume 18% loss of hp due to altitude)

Uncorrected crankshaft hp = (246 / .85) + 45 = 334 (assume 15% driveline loss and that the compressor required 45 hp to make 15 psi at 16,000 rpm)

Altitude-adjusted lb/min to make 334 crank hp = (334 / .82) / 10 = 40.8 lb/min

CFM = 40.8 / .0756 = 540

So, with the following assumptions:

Ambient air pressure at altitude: 18% below sea level
Drivetrain loss: 15%
HP to run blower: 45
1 lb/min of air flow = 10 hp ASL

The equations show that you'll need to process 540 CFM through your blower inlet to hit your hp target. But the blower only flows 550 CFM at 16,000 rpm, and that's at 10 psi. Since you'll be running more boost than that, and flow is inversely proportional to boost pressure, your JRSC won't flow 550 CFM at 16,000 rpm -- it will flow somewhat less -- maybe 500. This is why I don't think you'll be able to hit your hp target -- assuming you don't run the SC more than 16,000 rpm.

Again, these are guesses based on a few simple calculations. I'd say that, BEST CASE, they are within a +- 5% of what you might actually observe. In any case, it arrears that you are going to be right on the edge of the JRSC's capability, and IMO, at 16,000 rpm, you won't hit your hp target.

But I'd love to be proven wrong!

[RedRX]

Brian -- one more thing. Although I don't think you'll hit your hp target at 16,000 rpm, it may be possible at higher compressor speeds. So if you're willing to run your blower at more than 16K rpm, you might be able to make 300 corrected wheel hp with your JRSC. This assumes you stay with your 1.6L motor.

Also, I must concede a point I made earlier about the 1.6 v. 1.8L motor. Now that I've learned a little more about these superchargers, it appears that a larger displacement motor may help you somewhat. The reason is that the compressor doesn't have to work as hard on the larger motor, because you'll be able to flow the same amount of air at lower pressure. This means that at any given compressor rpm, the blower will be flowing slightly more air through the bigger motor, and in addition, the compressor won't be pulling as much hp from the crank.

[newt2]

I think one of the biggest factors you're going to have trouble with is belt slippage. The pully size to make the boost you'll need is going to be so small, that surface contact with the belt will be minimal. You'll probably have to run potentially damaging (to the blower) belt tension just to get it to not slip.

[davidm_sh]

Hello all-

I know I really don't post here much but I can hardly ever resist a good FI discussion, especially about Hondas and superchargers [heh].

Now I am not completely familiar with all the equations and calculations that have been discussed up to this point but I thought I would try to contribute through some real world experience with supercharging Honda's that I have gathered with my 99 Prelude.

First off I am curious if you already have the M62 (I assume?) blower or not? Becuase if you do not why don't you look into the autorotor/whipple superchargers? They take less hp to turn, they are much more efficient than eatons and they can be boosted up to 15-20psi with no where near the heatup as the (H)eatons. I realize they are a little more pricey but maybe a necessity in your goal for 300whp.

If you don't already know, or have heard (kind of old news I guesS), but I went through a BUNCH of crap with Rimmer in my quest to supercharge my prelude with a autorotor supercharger and air-to-water laminova intercooler. The cheif mechanic there was a VERY knowagable guy who could calculate to the 10+/- hp what each car would produce. He calculated that their 1.6L civic would produce about 200whp and 156wtq and it did that. This was with about 8psi system.

Now on that note he calculated that at 8psi with my H22A (completly stock) engine I would probably get around 250whp at 6000ft. altitude. So this seems to be a little more inline with your goals of 300whp.

ANother thing I read in this discussion was your idea of placing the supercharger over or near the exhaust manifold? Is this correct? If so that is where they placed mine and EVERYONE hated the idea(except Rimmer becuase it was his idea and he is a VERY stubborn stupid man) becuase in the end they knew it would end up frying my supercharger within a matter of 1000's of miles. I believe they mentioned that one of the Belle's had a similar system on a miata and they scrapped it becuase it kept destroying/overheating superchargers.

It's ashame that Rimmer is gone now becuase they had a very slick intake manifold system that incorporated the 1-2" thick intercooler and still allowed for placement in the back of the engine/intake side of engine. Keep in mind that these superchargers are also oil-from-engine-fed-lubricated superchargers (kind of like turbos) for the internal gearing. So imagine what a sealed supercharger like an Eaton would do when placed over the exhaust manifold?

Just some thoughts. I can respect your goals and desire for a nice linear/NA feel that the roots blowers provide but have you ever considered a small turbo application? I mean small enough to have full boost at say 2000-2500rpm (maybe somthing slightly bigger than a TD04/13g turbo)? That way you don't have to deal with the parasitic loss of almost 50hp (at max. supercharger rpm) and the intercooler dilema is solved via MANY aftermarket applications? I think the TD04L only flows about 360cfm or so but I am sure there is a small enough turbo where lag wouldn't be too bad to get 500-600cfm. The turbo I am currently using (VF-22) on my WRX flows about that and comes in at about 3500-4000rpms. BUT keep in mind that this is with the stock unequal length headers. If I were to put a set of equal length headers on it I could drop my spool up to somwhere around 2500-3000rpms. Which is what all you inline engine guys already have (equal length headers leading to turbo).

Anyway just some thoughts. SOrry for rambling on so long [heh].

Good luck.

[jeffro]

aaaahh my head hurts!!!

just put some nitrous on and call it a day!!!

i need a drink :drink:

[TedR719]

Good question...

"So imagine what a sealed supercharger like an Eaton would do when placed over the exhaust manifold"

[Brian]

Originally posted by futuresi
Good question...

"So imagine what a sealed supercharger like an Eaton would do when placed over the exhaust manifold"

Shouldn't be a problem at all. There will be a heat shield surrounding the area as well as header wrap on the exhaust manifold. The temps around the blower should be no higher than they are at the back of the engine.

[TedR719]

So when are you going to start the project?

[12seccivy]

Originally posted by jeffro
aaaahh my head hurts!!!

just put some nitrous on and call it a day!!!

i need a drink :drink:



jesus!!! i second this motion...:smashfrea

[HONDA GHANDI]

Hey Brian tell me if this sounds crazy but what if you reshaped the header to go up and over the trans leaving tons of room for the SC and piping?

[12seccivy]

Originally posted by FULLTHROTTLE
Hey Brian tell me if this sounds crazy but what if you reshaped the header to go up and over the trans leaving tons of room for the SC and piping?

interesting idea!!! but how would you eliminate heat tranfer to the upper and lower radiator hoses?
that seems to be the only problem i see for that idea..:confused:

[Brian]

Originally posted by FULLTHROTTLE
Hey Brian tell me if this sounds crazy but what if you reshaped the header to go up and over the trans leaving tons of room for the SC and piping?

Hmmm well with how inexpensive and extra long a kamikaze header is it's worth a try or at least some looking into.

We still need to meet up so we can talk about all this stuff.....