TC's piston smoothing...

[HONDA GHANDI]

For Roger McD's engine I am doing a few things that I havent done in a long time in the quest for the maximum hp. Here is something that I havnet done for a while and just got in a few products today to start up again. I am smoothing the tops of the pistons slightly to help conduct smooth flow and a smooth burn over the tops of the pistons. These are JE 11:1 pistons the one on the right is freshout of the box. the one on the left has been TC'd

http://tobi.clubrsx.com/roller.jpg
http://tobi.clubrsx.com/roller1.jpg

[Kwando]

damn tobi, i can't wait to have you do some work... looks great!

[HONDA GHANDI]

Smoothys are back! I have been developing some new methods and techniques after talking with other engine builders and reading up on the subject. The more I dig into this technology the more I find that it is sort of a black art that has been developed by race teams trying to find that "edge" over the other guys. What I have come up with is a solution that caters to the engines built for the street and the track. Dyno results in 20-30 hp gains with this slight modification. We use a 7 step process that reshapes the piston tops for smoother transition of air across the surface. All of the hard and sharp edges are radiused to help air flow over them smoothly and not create turbulence. The hard edges are breeding grounds for hot spots also. In addition we also polish the piston tops to reflect heat away from the combustion floor. This acts as a barrier and lowers the likelihood of detonation as well as deters carboning of the pistons. Prices start at $120 per set of 4.
http://dynojunkies.com/~tobi/smoothy1.jpg
http://dynojunkies.com/~tobi/smoothy2.jpg
http://dynojunkies.com/~tobi/smoothy3.jpg

[ryanman]

Nice work, been doing that for years (mostly on my sleds, 4 wheelers, dirtbikes, etc.) and it really does work good.

[Kwando]

damn that is Some shinny shit! you can almost see your bald head in there...

[floored4door]

so it starts at 120.00... what does it go up to?

[Weston]

That's blingin'!

[HONDA GHANDI]

so it starts at 120.00... what does it go up to?

Depends on the piston itself. SOme Wisecos need a LOT of love to make them this nice. JEs and CPs are easy, some others are the suck.

[Weston]

How much material do you end up taking off? Does it affect the compression ratio much?

[HONDA GHANDI]

Not enough material is removed to affect the CR, however there is a small weight loss (very small) so I make sure all the pistons weigh the same when I am done. Which is funny, this set of JEs that I am using as an example did not all weigh the same when I started. Heh.

[exciv2000]

sweet. Can you do stock pistons like that too?

[HONDA GHANDI]

Yes, but it takes more time to smooth them. They are cast so they have a very porous finish and they don't come out as nice.

[Pang]

very shinny! are they done inhouse?

[HONDA GHANDI]

100%

[Nate]

I like how you chrome plate them after. You should offer platinum also.

[Weston]

I like how you chrome plate them after. You should offer platinum also.

How about gold, and call it the "Bubb Rubb special"? :D

[HONDA GHANDI]

:rofl:

[Dustin]

You need to bead blast the tops when you're done.

[HONDA GHANDI]

You need to bead blast the tops when you're done.

Ive talked to a couple of builders on this and there is a difference of opinion.

[Terry]

How dare you question Tobi's godness!

[HONDA GHANDI]

I understand his statement. I have read and talked to a couple of builders on the pros and cons of both styles and I choose to go with the polished style for personal reasons. I guess I could do a motor build with both styles and see if there is any real advantage to either but for the most part it is just an opinion.

[Dustin]

I understand his statement. I have read and talked to a couple of builders on the pros and cons of both styles and I choose to go with the polished style for personal reasons. I guess I could do a motor build with both styles and see if there is any real advantage to either but for the most part it is just an opinion.

Probably doesn't matter on a street engine. If you were in an all motor class, you would surely dyno both finishes.

[HONDA GHANDI]

Yeah that is the difference that I hear so much about. It really depends on the motor, its use and what sort of induction will be used. With NA setups I have done on the Ks in the last year I have tried both styles and it made no discernable difference. The smoothing itself made huge differences in low nad mid range output as well as EGTs and timing flexibility. Motors with the smoothed and polished pistons tended to have higher EGTs but I was able to get away with more timing. Smoothed only no polish had generally lower EGTs but more knock so I had to use less timing. So it basically shifts the stress elsewhere in the engine by reflecting the heat. Probably the exhaust valves.

[Dustin]

more conflicting opinions...

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2316

[Weston-work]

How long does the polishing last? I'm assuming they'll eventually get dirty and the benefits will be lost, right?

[HONDA GHANDI]

LOL, redneck swaintech.

[Dustin]

How long does the polishing last? I'm assuming they'll eventually get dirty and the benefits will be lost, right?

A slighty carboned piston makes more power than a shiney piston. Read the above link.

[HONDA GHANDI]

How long does the polishing last? I'm assuming they'll eventually get dirty and the benefits will be lost, right?

Once the pistons carbon up the heat reflection is diminished slightly but it still works. Same as in the exhaust port, they are polished to a mirror shine to reflect heat into the chamber and not into the head. It still works with a coat of carbon on it, but the carbon transfers heat into the surface it is stuck to easier than by just convection. This stuff is sort of above my head as far as the thermal advantages but I am learning. I have a car here with a fresh motor and smoothies in it, I may go dyno it today and then put a couple hundred miles on it and dynoit again and see if there are any differneces. Of course I wont be able to tell difinitively that it was the pistons and not just normal break in but it would be an iteresting place to start researching it.

[HONDA GHANDI]

From Beck Racing Engines:

" Various piston, cam, valve, chamber and port configurations have been and are currently being tested to optimize engine internal temperatures. Some engines have ceramic exhaust port insulation liners that allow cooler cylinder head operation, while keeping exhaust temperatures elevated for efficient catalytic converter operation. The same ceramic-type insulation on a piston top has not been quite so successful. Ceramic insulation on pistons can insulate the piston too well. The piston stays cool while the very top surface gets so hot that the intake air is immediately heated on contact with the piston. The heated intake charge expands and reduces the air flow into the cylinder. On the compression cycle, the now over heated intake charge offers more resistance to being compressed and, because of the higher compression pressure and temperature, is more likely to detonate during combustion. Ideal piston temperatures in an operating engine would suggest refrigeration during the intake and compression stroke, and incandescence during the combustion and exhaust stroke. The advantage of a hot piston on the power stroke is that less combustion energy is going to be absorbed by the piston. So far, it is not practical to heat and refrigerate a piston 6000 times a minute. However, if the incoming air is not heated by the piston and the piston reflects the heat of combustion, you start to approach ideal conditions. A polished hypereutectic piston will reflect combustion heat back into the combustion process. This reflection, combined with the insulating qualities of the hypereutectic alloy, keeps the heat in the cylinder during the power stroke. A smooth polished piston runs cooler than a non-polished piston, even after combustion deposits have turned both pistons black. A cool, smooth piston will transmit a minimum of heat to the incoming fuel air mix."


Entire article. http://www.beckracing.com/page07.htm

[Dustin]

What kind of PCV system do they run on those motors?

[HONDA GHANDI]

On Becks? Probably a belt drive vacuum pump.

On the K it is just a standard system, filtered air in at the valve cover and vacuum draw through at the intake manifold.

[Dustin]

you should hook a vacuum pump up on that K you're building.

[HONDA GHANDI]

Thought about it, I think especially on a boosted engine if you could actually build a vacuum under the piston you would unlock a lot of power and maybe have a little more reliability to the motor.

[Dustin]

I wonder how many inches of vacuum it would take to kill the piston oil squirters.

Usually anything over 15" starts to pull oil of the wrist pins and cylinder walls.

[HONDA GHANDI]

Hrmm, that would be interesting. If I did a vacuum system on a K though it wouldnt be much harder to put a dry sump oil system on it too. The K oil pumps are weaksauce and start to cavitate above 8500.

[Nightfall]

Tobi > Hiroyuki Yoshino

[kevino002]

man why couldnt you be doing this about 8 months ago when I was doing my engine build, sweet looking pistons.

[Conrad]

rice!

[-=[Juztin]=-]

dang! Those massaged pistons would make Jesus let out a tear.

[Weston-work]

=-']dang! Those massaged pistons would make Jesus let out a tear.

http://www.rubix.ca/Bonnie/bc_stuff/ricers_jesus.jpg

[myshtern]

I'm glad this thread is here to counteract all the gay threads on HAI right now.

Tobi, have you made a PCV vaccum system on any other big HP engines?

[HONDA GHANDI]

I have put vacuum scavengers in exhausts before, and the Endyn catch can vacuum system before. Never built my own though. On the race car project I am doing I will end up doing a belt drive pump system. Since it will have the oil system already it is easy to jsut add another pump on to the back of the oil pump and drive it that way.

[Dustin]

Electric vacuum pumps are the way to go...but are $$$

[HONDA GHANDI]

Yeah I know. Im not a baller like yourself D.

[Weston-work]

I'm glad this thread is here to counteract all the gay threads on HAI right now.

Yeah, like that one where that guy blew up a D-series because he ran 14 psi on it for a while with zero tuning, then came up with about 50 different conflicting excuses about what caused it to blow.

[HONDA GHANDI]

I got one reason why it blew. D-series.

[myshtern]

Yeah, like that one where that guy blew up a D-series because he ran 14 psi on it for a while with zero tuning, then came up with about 50 different conflicting excuses about what caused it to blow.
Weston, you're getting pretty rediculous.
It blew because the stock map sensor doesnt read more than 11psi.
My rods are tiny and couldnt handle that sort of power.

The tune on my car was very thorough and conservative.

[HONDA GHANDI]

broken rods have nothing to do with AF ratio.

[myshtern]

broken rods have nothing to do with AF ratio.
Yeah but the tuning software retards X amount per Y amount of boost pressure.
So it stopped retarding the ignition timing at 11psi and probably began to detonate later.

[HONDA GHANDI]

Eh, maybe. Detonation will melt a piston and valve but wont break a rod. If I rememeber correctly the rod broke and came through the block correct? That is just pure stress related failure. weak parts + excess boost = Boom!

[myshtern]

Eh, maybe. Detonation will melt a piston and valve but wont break a rod. If I rememeber correctly the rod broke and came through the block correct? That is just pure stress related failure. weak parts + excess boost = Boom!
Yeah the rod went through the block.

So is it fair to say that the tune was very good because the failure didnt have anything to do with ignition timing or A/F?

[HONDA GHANDI]

well without data I cant say if the tune was good or not. But it is safe to say that 15 psi is enough to break a stock sohc tune or no tune.

[Weston-work]

Weston, you're getting pretty rediculous.
It blew because the stock map sensor doesnt read more than 11psi.
My rods are tiny and couldnt handle that sort of power.

The tune on my car was very thorough and conservative.

I remember seeing you step on it while leaving David's apartment that one time... we all commented that you weren't exactly making "power". How was your tune "very thorough and conservative" when it hasn't even seen a dyno yet? That sounds like a M@-tune... making guesses and declaring it safe because you looked at the spark plugs and they didn't look too horrible. Also, why would someone who makes this "very thorough and conservative" tune be running around at 14 psi, when he knows the MAP sensor is only good to 11? Seems like common sense to not be beating on it under those conditions. I can disable my wastegate completely and still manage to keep it under a few PSI, because we both know that it will only hit high boost if you give it enough throttle... much more throttle than you need to drive around town or get on the highway.

[myshtern]

I remember seeing you step on it while leaving David's apartment that one time... we all commented that you weren't exactly making "power". How was your tune "very thorough and conservative" when it hasn't even seen a dyno yet? That sounds like a M@-tune... making guesses and declaring it safe because you looked at the spark plugs and they didn't look too horrible. Also, why would someone who makes this "very thorough and conservative" tune be running around at 14 psi, when he knows the MAP sensor is only good to 11? Seems like common sense to not be beating on it under those conditions. I can disable my wastegate completely and still manage to keep it under a few PSI, because we both know that it will only hit high boost if you give it enough throttle... much more throttle than you need to drive around town or get on the highway.
Weston, other than seeing me drive my car once, you don't know anything about my setup. When I was driving to davids house, thats was 6psi with no boost controller. Anyway, you seem to know everything about my car and my driving so there is no need for me to say more. You seem to be more upset at me for busting my engine than anyone I know.

Whats this association you are making between matt and me? Both of you are making HAI a really gay forum right now, that's all there is to it. I dont like either of you more than the other.

[Weston-work]

Weston, other than seeing me drive my car once, you don't know anything about my setup. When I was driving to davids house, thats was 6psi with no boost controller. Anyway, you seem to know everything about my car why bother telling you any more.

So if you had the option of running 6 psi, then why did you continue to run 14, when you admit that you knew it was a bad idea, and that the MAP sensor doesn't support it, so it's impossible for it to be tuned correctly at that boost level? Of course, like Tobi said, it probably wouldn't matter even if it were tuned right... it's just a bad idea in general. The issue here is that you gave us several conflicting excuses as to why it blew up, so I'm giving you a hard time about that.

Whats this association you are making between matt and me? Both of you are making HAI a really gay forum right now, that's all there is to it. I dont like either of you more than the other.

You and Matt share similar setup and tuning ideas, that's all. :rofl:

[myshtern]

So if you had the option of running 6 psi, then why did you continue to run 14, when you admit that you knew it was a bad idea, and that the MAP sensor doesn't support it, so it's impossible for it to be tuned correctly at that boost level? Of course, like Tobi said, it probably wouldn't matter even if it were tuned right... it's just a bad idea in general. The issue here is that you gave us several conflicting excuses as to why it blew up, so I'm giving you a hard time about that.

I cranked it up to 14psi because like you said, 6psi was lame. I figured i'd be able to control it most of the time with the throttle until I got the boost controll issue figured out. But at high speeds, it just went to 14psi almost instantaneously.

Either way, why do I need give you excuses as to why it blew?
If you dont like my reasons, then go fuck yourself I dont care.

Whatever love fest you have with matt, stop posting about it.

[HONDA GHANDI]

why dont you both stop posting about it in my thread. K? Thnx.

[crxrocks]

Should have bought a 3 bar from Tobi and had him tune it.

Oh wait, that is what I am going to do. ;-)

[Zach]

why dont you both stop posting about it in my thread. K? Thnx.

hahahahah p0wnZor3d by tobi.

ps. nice work on the pistons. they look hawt.