Superchargers!!!

[Conrad]

Ok question... I know that a few of you have some specific knowledge of supercharging a b18 engine... My question which is open to anyone... What is the downfall to Supercharging? Highend power? I guess my ideal setup would be something like a vortech supercharger with a 20+ pound pully(which I dont think they make).. What options are there and what are the advantages and disadvantages to this.

[myshtern]

Super high temp intake charges

[HONDA GHANDI]

The Vortec has an aftercooler. The JRSC is the one with high temps.

[Conrad]

Super high temp intake charges

can you not run an intercooler to solve that problem?

[Conrad]

The Vortec has an aftercooler. The JRSC is the one with high temps.

I have seen the aftercool Tobi... But I know there are a few kits out their that allow for a intercooler... Would it be possible to do this with my civic?

[STIBungy]

There was a thread on here a while back about supercharger efficiency. exciv2000 has done an extensive research on them.

[stu]

An aftercooler and intercooler are the same thing. If you want to run 20psi on a centrifugal supercharger, why wouldn't you just do 20psi on a turbo? Then you wouldn't have to wait till redline for full boost.

[Conrad]

An aftercooler and intercooler are the same thing. If you want to run 20psi on a centrifugal supercharger, why wouldn't you just do 20psi on a turbo? Then you wouldn't have to wait till redline for full boost.

Well I am looking at having more then 20 psi, but one of the big things I am seeing is the ability to keep the AC without a lot of custom work. And a more powerful bottom end. The aftercooler is nice but an intercooler is more effective as far as I can read and probably a tad cheaper... And for the ricer in me I like the supercharger whine! The turbo setup is nice but then Ill have like a 400 hp increase from 6K to 7k which is a lot of all of a sudden power! I would like to have the same top end power but with some bottom end increase..

[stu]

I don't think that the bottom end increase will be much on a centrifigul set-up like that.

How can an intercooler be more effcient than an aftercooler if they are the exact same thing?

[Conrad]

I don't think that the bottom end increase will be much on a centrifigul set-up like that.

How can an intercooler be more effcient than an aftercooler if they are the exact same thing?

The aftercooler that vortech has is water cooled air... And is set behind the engine in the bay where engine temps are very high.. With the intercooler as you know is outside the engine compartment and is getting fresh outside air

[stu]

Ahhh, I see. So it's not that it's an aftercooler, it's that it's a water-to-air intercooler. Now it makes sense.

[exciv2000]

Go turbo. Here's why:

1) The vortech doesn't make your typical SC scream/whine... it sounds more like a turbo
2) A turbo can be put together cheaper and still retain your A/C if you do it right, and it can be a turbo that hits full boost at 2500 RPM vs. 6500+ RPM for a Vortech.
3) Use the free radicals of the exhaust with turbo vs. getting peaky boost and low end lag of a belt driven snail.
4) Check out the SC forum that I moderate at SHO for more information here: http://www.superhonda.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=10 There you will find JRSC vs. Vortech sticky and other information you need to know about preparing for an SC of any type.
5) JRSC's don't go to 20 PSI unless they are radically modified and have an intercooler which is some $$$$ on top of the actual kit, whether new or used. Pulleys have to be custom made to reach such high boost levels.
6) It's too bad Whipple doesn't make SC's for hondas, I would bolt one of those on in a heartbeat over and above anything else. Lyhsolm chargers > *FI

[rmcdaniels]

I like the Vortech, it can make a lot of power, keep the A/C, is efficient at high boost/CFM (compared to the JRSC), and it has predictable power delivery. It doesn't make peak boost until peak RPM, but if you're looking for a 20 PSI setup, then you don't really want to hit peak boost too early because you'll break traction too easily, kind of like I do with my 20 PSI turbo setup. I was thinking about setting up a Vortech setup with the B-series drive system and a bigger blower, like one of the Mustang CCW blowers, which Vortech confirmed would fit and I see a lot on ebay from the Mustang guys who are upgrading. I actually bought the drive assembly, but scrapped the idea to go all motor. Coincidentally it is on ebay right now for sale because I need the money. This is everything you would need minus the blower for half what you would pay for it otherwise, and all brand new.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=7982988650&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT

I'm also selling a brand new Whipple blower that could potentially be used with this setup with some additional parts and some fabrication, that's also for sale for half what you would otherwise buy it for here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=7982557893&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT

If you want the Whipple I can also link you to the parts necessary to get it working on a B-series.

[blackciv4]

I like the Vortech, it can make a lot of power, keep the A/C, is efficient at high boost/CFM (compared to the JRSC), and it has predictable power delivery. It doesn't make peak boost until peak RPM, but if you're looking for a 20 PSI setup, then you don't really want to hit peak boost too early because you'll break traction too easily, kind of like I do with my 20 PSI turbo setup. I was thinking about setting up a Vortech setup with the B-series drive system and a bigger blower, like one of the Mustang CCW blowers, which Vortech confirmed would fit and I see a lot on ebay from the Mustang guys who are upgrading. I actually bought the drive assembly, but scrapped the idea to go all motor. Coincidentally it is on ebay right now for sale because I need the money. This is everything you would need minus the blower for half what you would pay for it otherwise, and all brand new.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=7982988650&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT

I'm also selling a brand new Whipple blower that could potentially be used with this setup with some additional parts and some fabrication, that's also for sale for half what you would otherwise buy it for here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=7982557893&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT

If you want the Whipple I can also link you to the parts necessary to get it working on a B-series.

Hey Rodger How hard is it to put on that Whipple? I already have a Jackson kit on there now. I have a B16 as you know but have never heard of anyone running a Whipple on a Civic.

[Conrad]

:werd:

[rmcdaniels]

Hey Rodger How hard is it to put on that Whipple? I already have a Jackson kit on there now. I have a B16 as you know but have never heard of anyone running a Whipple on a Civic.Not real easy, but not too hard. I'd use the Vortech drive assembly with a short shaft, bearing assembly, and pulley/belt from www.misumiamerica.com (http://www.misumiamerica.com/) to make a jackshaft assembly so you could mount the Whipple backwards (Whipples rotate CW) over the clutch slave cylinder. You'd have to convert to a pusher fan for your radiator. Then make a couple of brackets to mount the Whipple to the bell housing and the Vortech bracket, make those out of thin aluminum, then scan them and send the scans to http://www.emachineshop.com/ to have steel brackets made. Next make flanges for the inlet and outlet, using the same method as the brackets (but with gasket materialinstead of aluminum, then you have your gaskets made for it too), and have a welder weld ducting to the flanges, I'm thinking 3" exhaust piping cut in half longitudinally would work for the ducting and be easy to weld to the flanges. Run the intake to a CAI and the output to a FMIC. After that you'd just need to fit a bypass valve between the inlet and outlet piping, but that's easy and Whipple sells vacuum operated bypass valves so you'd just need to do the ducting. That would pretty much take care of it.

[blackciv4]

Wow I dont think that I am that inclined to do something of the sort. What would the gains be over a Jackson at low boost if any?

[rmcdaniels]

Wow I dont think that I am that inclined to do something of the sort. What would the gains be over a Jackson at low boost if any?
Efficiency, you wouldn't get as much temperature delta at high RPM's, and you could run it through a FMIC to cool it.

[doctorstupid]

Wow I dont think that I am that inclined to do something of the sort. What would the gains be over a Jackson at low boost if any?
Lots. On an otherwise stock Cobra, switching out the roots blower for a Whipple netted ~90HP and ~60lb.ft... on stock boost.

http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/Images/productimages/cobra_graph.gif

Roots blowers not only produce gobs of heat, they also draw quite a bit of power from the crankshaft to operate.

[timg]

I love whipples. The L67 guys are having HUGE gains with them also. (they're the 3.8L supercharged V6 in Grand Prix's).

Tim

[rmcdaniels]

I love whipples. The L67 guys are having HUGE gains with them also. (they're the 3.8L supercharged V6 in Grand Prix's).

Tim
I saw one of those big ass GP family sedans running 12's at the track a few months back. Made me wonder what the hell the guy did to it.

[timg]

I think the guy you're talking about is Gary. IIRC, he ran a 12.6 a few months ago. There are a few of them in the 12's/13's locally and the 10's nationally.
Here's a list with the top 25 fwd 3800 times and some of their mods.
http://www.3800pro.com/lists/fwdquarter.html

That's exactly why I need to make it to the track this summer. I don't have a Grand Prix(they're a gen 2 w-body), but I do have a gen 1.5 w-body that would be 8th on their horsepower list right now... (263 whp @ 7 psi)
Here's an old list of some of those guys at the dyno.
http://www.dynopro.com/mhhr_grand-prix.asp
Any at the track in 2005 and 2004-
http://www.rmcgp.com/TrackResults-mambo.php?comp=6
http://www.rmcgp.com/TrackResults-mambo.php?comp=2
I'm not sure how updated those are, but they're pretty good for a 3500 lb sedan/coupe with a pushrod engine!

tim

[Zach]

sorry to ressurect an old thread, i was out of town when it first started, and am just now catching up on it. I was on vortechs website, and i cant seem to fint the compressor maps, or anything i can use that would help me to find out what would be the best compressor for a B18c1. any ideas?
ps, i know they have a kit for the gsr, but like RMC was saying, would a bigger compressor be worth it?

[Zach]

oh, and just one more thing, what psi can be run on those, if i build the motor, could i run 20 psi without any problems? what type of engine management would be best for those, and what type of fuel upgrades should i look at.
im not planning to do this anytime in the near future, but its always nice to have the info.

[powder311]

what would be the best compressor for a B18c1. any ideas?

T3/t4... I ran one.. great power and drivable under 3400rpm...

[rmcdaniels]

sorry to ressurect an old thread, i was out of town when it first started, and am just now catching up on it. I was on vortechs website, and i cant seem to fint the compressor maps, or anything i can use that would help me to find out what would be the best compressor for a B18c1. any ideas?
ps, i know they have a kit for the gsr, but like RMC was saying, would a bigger compressor be worth it?
http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/support/

[rmcdaniels]

oh, and just one more thing, what psi can be run on those, if i build the motor, could i run 20 psi without any problems? what type of engine management would be best for those, and what type of fuel upgrades should i look at.
im not planning to do this anytime in the near future, but its always nice to have the info.
20 PSI is a stretch, even for a built motor. I ran it on my built B16 for 9 months and it worked fine, but you are running it so close to the edge on pump gas that any little thing going wrong will blow your stuff up.

Engine management depends on what the good tuners in your area use. Find a good tuner, then use what your tuner is comfortable with.

[doctorstupid]

I wouldn't bother with a Vortech, because it's little more than a turbo linked to the crankshaft instead of the exhaust, your spool relies entirely on engine speed, not load and thus exhaust energy. Although admitedly they do have the benefit of an effecient turbo-like compressor without a huge exhaust restriction (the other half of a turbo).

If it were me, I would go with a turbo, though a Whipple would be my second choice.

[rmcdaniels]

The Vortech does have a nice torque line though, it rises linearly and looks easy to control, plus you get more torque as you wind it up, which I'd think would be good for keeping traction under control.

[doctorstupid]

The Vortech does have a nice torque line though, it rises linearly and looks easy to control, plus you get more torque as you wind it up, which I'd think would be good for keeping traction under control.
*cough* All wheel drive *cough cough* :D

Though for a wrong wheel drive car a linear power band like that could be easier to control, I suppose.

[rmcdaniels]

*cough* All wheel drive *cough cough* :D

Though for a wrong wheel drive car a linear power band like that could be easier to control, I suppose.
High power FWD traction is a bitch.

[powder311]

*cough* t3/t4 *cough*

[Zach]

i understand the te/t4 point, but i was just thinking that it might be nice to have power build and then be pulling really hard at top end, instead of having all the power hit at once, then lose traction all the time. plus it would be a different setup, which would be nice. would 15 psi (daily driven) be a more reasonable goal?

[inam]

Your teg looks nice!