The price you pay for performance...

[-=[Juztin]=-]

Welp I was bored and thinking about car stuff and actually starting to plan where I want to go money wise to modify my car as I will shortly be paying off my last CC bill totally!!!!

I started to tally all that I wanted parts wise... just keep in mind parts wise using a couple of sites. Granted some parts I could shop around, but for the Z33 critical, it's usually not a case less I wanna buy something used. But anyhow after seeing just the price on parts, it definately looks like it will be a VERY long road to a fast car....


---Turbo kit---
$5850.00 Greddy TT w/ IC
$ 999.00 AAM Return Fuel sys
$ 580.00 RC 650cc Inj. (x6)
$ 510.00 Greddy e-01 bc
$ 34.00 HKS BOV 60mm flange
$ 210.00 HKS SSQ BOV
$ 298.00 Autosport Wiring Harness
$ 40.00 Greddy E-Manage timing harn.
$ 40.00 Greddy E-Manage RPM adap.
$ 80.00 NGK Iridum 2 ranges colder
---Block Internals---
$1050.00 Darton Mid Sleeve kit
$ 380.00 ARP Head & Main studs
$ 750.00 Arias 8.6:1 .020" o.b.
$1170.00 Pauter Rods
$ 80.00 CJM Shielded CAS wire
$ 395.00 APS high volume oil pan
---Drivetrain---
$1510.00 DriveShaft Shop Stage 5
$2550.00 ATS Triple Disc 1100kg
$ 925.00 NISMO LSD
---Misc---
$ 195.00 APS Test pipes
$1500.00 HKS Dual Exhaust 2.5"
$ 450.00 AEM UEGO WB
$ 80.00 Autometer 3 Guage pod
$ 120.00 Defi D-Series Boost
$ 175.00 Defi D-Series EGT
$ 229.00 Defi D-Series Fuel PSI
$ 124.95 NISMO Thermostat
$ 364.50 Stillen Oil cooler
$ 399.95 Koyo Radiator


Final tally on parts... ~$21,089.40 not to mention labor and block work...
Hell since it woudl already be such a job might as well throw in some head work as well!
And I didn't even bother estimating the cost on upgrading the Greddy 18G's to have a 20G wheel. 18G's seem to choke ~650whp, might as well go all the way if doing such a build at once.

Edit: but I'm still in a bit of a crutch because the highest injectors currently run w/ an emanage is 720cc. And to no suprise ideability problems. The only other route thusfar w/ larger injectors that has been proven is HKS 1kcc injectors on a HKS FCON V-PRO setup. I don't believe their's such talent in this state, only person I'd bother with really with such a fuel system otherwise is a guy in Chicago (CJM Motorsports). But other than HKS FCON, there's the merelli and motec solutions, of course overly exotic for Colorado and tunability locally... Well I suppose by the time I actually acquire all the needed parts there should hopefully be the AEM EMS out by then a couple of years down the road lol.

Anybody here have it as bad in terms of cost? I have a hard time swallowing the cost for being an enthusiast, why do I have to be in such an expensive hobby? :rolleyes: :Peace:

EDIT II: Sadly enough my parts list alone price is right on par with the other guys and their built Z's... definately a reason why there aren't many built Z's. Even with just going with the FI kits without engine rebuilts, the price to play is still around 10k after all is said and done. By the end of it I should have a 60,000 dollar car. Provided I don't melt a couple of pistons due to some still unsolved cooling issues.

[InRox01]

Provided I don't melt a couple of pistons due to some still unsolved cooling issues.
;ScratchHe

[stu]

Don't do it.

[Conrad]

I wouldnt waste that much money Justin.... Your car is awesome now as a cruiser... SC that bish and call her done.

[Kwando]

thats it! weak

[-=[Juztin]=-]

;ScratchHe
It's a newer ugly issue that has been rearing it's head with some of the built Z's. One of the guys I had posted about a while ago who hit 600whp on pump gas shortly melted his pistons later. Tune was sub 11's across the board. He was running 16psi, and no sign of knock. Other guys at even lower power levels (sub 400's & 500's) have also been hitting issues with overheating and coming out with melted pistons. Practically all of the cars that I know of that have hit the issues have been running stock cooling, but 1 tuner chimed in with putting in aftermarket radiator and oil cooler to only help the problem so much. Robbie mentioned in another thread about enlarging the cooling passages which will definately be a thing to try, but when you dump in as much money in parts alone that's very close to the cost of the car, it's a hard investment in light of the issues at hand. It's a bit of a newer issue as more people delve into the built VQ realm, and tuners are trying to find ways to remedy the problem. But akin like the Supra.. insane power levels come with an isane price tag. After seeing the price I'm kinda shaky on dumping in so much money, but then again I'm still definately open to a route that would leave me with with say 450 or so hp or possibly the 500's. Either route will require an engine rebuild which is a large chunk of the cost. But my problem is finding a solution that is most importantly tuneable locally. I love the APS TT kit and even the APS ST kit for what they are, but there are no APS authorized tuners in Colorado or even the surrounding states. I cannot justify shipping a car 700+ miles to just get a tune that is close to sea level. I want it tuned here at altitude. The best option is the Greddy kit no matter how much people hate it (it's blown a huge amount of vq35's but practically most of them can be attribute to the installer/tuner. But the Greddy TT is also incomplete and even at it's stock boost, some consider it a ticking time bomb. To get the Greddy TT reliable enough I would consider nothing but the AAM full return fuel system and the CAS shielded wire (which has been proven in the pass to cause the ECU to trigger erratic timing which has blown motors). But that's the thing with the Greddy TT, you'll end up with another 2-3k investments to get the kit 'safe'. I'd love to have the APS TT kit and then rip out the fuel system, but with the APS TT kit, going for 7,400 and adding on another 2-3k is a little over the top for getting the beneifts of bb turbo's. But I might just do that if I go the route of more of a moderately modded car versus an all out monster. As my ass gets older it gets a bit harder to justify spending so much money on the car. And I'm really taking what buds have said thusfar about it, thanks guys!

[B20civic]

imo, cars are a waste of money.

but do what you feel is right :)

[ryanman]

If I were you I'd keep the Z as a work/cruiser/track day car and find something a little cheaper to fuck around with.

[-=[Juztin]=-]

definately good advice, thanks ryan. I've still got my old 55 chevy to bring up and fuck around with, but then again it's funny how much some more oomf would cost for the Z. I did some thinking about it and modified my parts lists to shoot for around 500 instead. Anyhow I came up with...

---Turbo kit---
$5900.00 APS ST
$ 80.00 NGK Iridum 2 ranges colder
---Block Internals---
$ 380.00 ARP Head & Main studs
$ 860.00 Arias 9.0:1 .020" o.b.
$1170.00 Pauter Rods
---Misc---
$ 450.00 AEM UEGO WB
$ 80.00 Autometer 2 Guage pod
$ 120.00 Defi D-Series Boost

Total... $9,040.00

This route would definately be a little more down to earth. I like the placement of the APS ST kit w/ the turbo hanging right behind the headers versus the Turbonetics where it's way in front of the engine by the intake tube. Only thing that sucks is I'm going to be very limited in tuning with the unichip, have to probably take vacation time to go out-of-state to get the car tuned. Ugh. Hopefully in a couple of years with saving and getting my parts I can actually start running at bandimere and actually not be slow :)

Still very expensive considering labor and possible need to get half shafts, beefier clutch. The minute you start modding the car it definately becomes a money pit... but hell I'm out to enjoy life. If I'm busting my ass, might as well make it worth while :) Tobi, learn how to tune the unichip! ;)

[Dave_L]

Yeah, I feel your pain Justin. Just the turbo kit for my car is $6,700. Once everything is said and done, I'm looking at between 9-10k to get my car turbo'd with everything. :(

I think I'm just going to find a used SC for about 3-4k and put that one and make it a nice cruiser. Then, I'm thinking about getting another honda to boost because they are so cheap to mod/build.

[Dustin]

You need to sleeve the block for .020" over?

[Conrad]

Yeah, I feel your pain Justin. Just the turbo kit for my car is $6,700. Once everything is said and done, I'm looking at between 9-10k to get my car turbo'd with everything. :(

I think I'm just going to find a used SC for about 3-4k and put that one and make it a nice cruiser. Then, I'm thinking about getting another honda to boost because they are so cheap to mod/build.

STFU and do it already!

:rofl:

[ryanman]

I wouldn't bore it unless it absolutely needs to be bored.

[Dave_L]

STFU and do it already!

:rofl:
STFU Noob! ;NutKick;

[Weston-work]

That's a ridiculous price for a turbo kit, and the $1500 exhaust is equally ridiculous. You can save a hell of a lot of money by just avoiding the ricer brand name parts and getting something custom made.

[HONDA GHANDI]

The sleeved blocks can be rebored and if needed have sleeves redone if bored too many times. The .020 over is for a little bit more cubic inch. I have done the same thing.

[-=[Juztin]=-]

Regarding the overbore, my block has 70k miles on it already, and when I get around to actually building it, it'll probably have in excess of 100k miles. I highly doubt the cylinders will be round and work perfectly with stock bore pistons. I dropped the darton sleeves simply because of price and for 500hp or so ther'es already more than a couple vq35's running around at that level with no issues. Everyone's consensus so far is to sleeve is to really go above and beyond 600. There's are a couple of cars at 600 w/ no sleeves. Just the plain 'ol open deck.

If I avoided all the brand name parts it'll actually come out more. I looked at going custom before and the price usually comes out to what the kits out there are available for already or even more expensive. I'd rarther go with what's tried and true than be guinnea pig and spend even more money on r&d. It doesn't make economic sense to go custom with this car. Honda's and Acrua's sure, but take a peak under the hood and the room you have to work with and it becomes a nightmare fairly quick. I think we got more room under our hoods than the Z32's... but not by that much.

Weston, the Z ain't cheap. You pay premium for FI, the absolute cheapest kit out their is the vortech tuner kit (no fuel management/fuel sys) which will run you about $3,800. I do like the HKS exhaust because of it's 2.5" thru & thru and it has double resonators and canisters at the end to eliminate the rasp from running catless (and it's titanium). But if I add a turbo to the mix my last worry will be rasp. But since I've pretty much set on the ST route... The APS ST provides from the downpipe back 3.5" all the way to almost the rear axles. So I'd just rather opt for a custom exhaust with a muffler w/ a 3.5" inlet and outlet.

[Weston-work]

Turbos don't cost any more just because you have a Z... it's the kit that jacks you, and a large part of that is because they know most Z owners have money to spend. They also have to recover their own R&D costs, and still make a profit. You can put together a custom kit for your car and your intended use for much less...

Let's add up the costs (and this is an inflated estimate):

$1100 for 2 turbos
$1100 for 2 manifolds (should be able to get custom equal length manifolds for this price)
$500 for 2 wastegates
$350 for FMIC
$500 for custom intercooler piping from the 2 turbos (including fabrication and parts)
$50 for a BOV and flange (DSM is all you need)
$100 for oil feed and return lines, and fittings
$350 for custom downpipes (including fabrication, labor, and parts)
$250 for bigger injectors
$150 for a high flow fuel pump
$600 for fuel management electronics

Grand total: $5050

That's a pretty inflated estimate and it gives you a lot more than the Greddy TT kit, but it's still $800 less. Now go check out the actual prices on everything involved and watch that grand total drop down significantly, especially if you decide to use some used parts. I bet you could even get the costs down to under $4000, if you get the parts at competitive prices and do some of the fabrication yourself (the intercooler piping, for example). If David and Stu can do it, so can you. :rofl:

[stu]

Just buy my car Justin. $500.

[STIBungy]

Nice try, Stu.

Just buy my car Justin. $500.

Juztin, you should look into swapping the vq30 into the Z. Sure, you lose .5L displacment but in the end, you get a more reliable car even though the power levels may not be that of a built 3.5. You also save a ton of money.

[Zach]

what kind of car? im interested

[Weston-work]

Justin should do a B16 swap.

[stu]

what kind of car? im interested


Are you talking to me?

[Aracheon]

Justin should do a B16 swap.


H22 > B16. Everyone knows that. Duh. :rolleyes:

[-=[Juztin]=-]

Turbos don't cost any more just because you have a Z... it's the kit that jacks you, and a large part of that is because they know most Z owners have money to spend. They also have to recover their own R&D costs, and still make a profit. You can put together a custom kit for your car and your intended use for much less...

Let's add up the costs (and this is an inflated estimate):

$1100 for 2 turbos
$1100 for 2 manifolds (should be able to get custom equal length manifolds for this price)
$500 for 2 wastegates
$350 for FMIC
$500 for custom intercooler piping from the 2 turbos (including fabrication and parts)
$50 for a BOV and flange (DSM is all you need)
$100 for oil feed and return lines, and fittings
$350 for custom downpipes (including fabrication, labor, and parts)
$250 for bigger injectors
$150 for a high flow fuel pump
$600 for fuel management electronics

Grand total: $5050

That's a pretty inflated estimate and it gives you a lot more than the Greddy TT kit, but it's still $800 less. Now go check out the actual prices on everything involved and watch that grand total drop down significantly, especially if you decide to use some used parts. I bet you could even get the costs down to under $4000, if you get the parts at competitive prices and do some of the fabrication yourself (the intercooler piping, for example). If David and Stu can do it, so can you. :rofl:This is where I hit a brick wall. I can't do any fabrication myself due to lack of space, expertise, and tools. So whatever I go with I have to factor in labor costs. The most I would look at to do myself (with the help of buds of course lol) is a turbo kit install. My costs estimates for the price of going custom being higher comes from paying someone to be able to connect all the components together. I don't wanna buy used parts less I can actually purchase it from someone I know personally and can trust. That of crouse makes the price of buying new expensive. Although I'm not totally devoid of considering not going custom, thanks for the break down Weston, it's still a route I'll consider once I got money in hand. For now I'm gonna look at acquiring the needed vq35 internal components. Thanks for the suggestion Hung regarding the vq30, but I'm going to be a little stubborn as the engine I wanna keep under my hood is the vq35 lol :) . I really think the vq35 has lots of potential but the hardest and most expensive thing right now definately seems to be the turbo kit and subsequent components. If I could really find price like that for a custom kit I would definately follow it with great interest. But my experience in such a turbo system is nil and I've got an idea of what I need, but down to the nitty gritty that's where I have no idea. Weston has resparked my interest in going custom if I can truly get the price down without going ghetto. I know there's a lot of talent and experience on this board and that's why I mainly brought such a topic back up. Plus aside from the fact that HAI needs to get back into the car realm than just a drama queen board.

With all that being said, I would like to get people's recommendations on choices of turbos and their perceived pro's and con's.

Base engine, 3.5L aluminum open deck block.
Stock rev limit of 6600 rpm's.
(I don't know the stock flow of the heads but I think I can find that information)

Lets say I would like enough air to flow 700bhp and still have atleast 2-3k's worth of rpm power band up top. I don't want quiet the Stu powerband although it was pure bliss when it hit. I would like to go for as good of a general power band as possible.

What would some of you consider for a single turbo to push 700bhp worth of air on the vq35 and at what psi? (Ideally I'd like to try for around 15psi because I would like to stick with 9.0:1 compression) [can be any type of turbo]

How about the same goals with a twin turbo solution?

[-=[Juztin]=-]

[Single Turbo]
Has anyone had any experience with the Greddy T67? I was curious was to what psi it can push the claimed 60lb/min....Say if it's 20psi, 20psi doens't sound like a good idea on 9.0:1 compression pistons and 91 octane...

How about the GT35R?

[bluetalon]

It's scary to see the total amount you have spent on your car. I try not to think about it.

[STIBungy]

GT35R should be pretty similar in flowrate to the T67.

=-'][Single Turbo]
Has anyone had any experience with the Greddy T67? I was curious was to what psi it can push the claimed 60lb/min....Say if it's 20psi, 20psi doens't sound like a good idea on 9.0:1 compression pistons and 91 octane...

How about the GT35R?

[Conrad]

GT42RS > *

[myshtern]

Look into single turbo to save money.
Also, you forgot tuning expenses.

[gjcivic]

well, at least you'd have a quick car all said and done... me, i'm kinda tired of it all (haven't been around here in a while because of that...) Working on the civic again this weekend, and cam e to the conclusion that if I am going to drive something that needs to be screwed with all the time, I at least want it to be a hell of a lot more fun when I'm not screwing with it... hate to say it, but i think it might be time for a hotrod... god that hurts...... I say keep the z like it is and sink the cash in the old chevy. All said and done, you'll have 2 bad as cars, one of wich should run for just about ever, and one that you won't see 5 (or in my case 100) of on your way to work :)