Need a bit of JRSC tech help

[exciv2000]

Hey guys. I might have a little bit of a problem, but I'm not sure what it is or how to fix it. On my EX, at partial throttle acceleration (not boosting), the car seems to hesitate a bit here and there... It feels like the ECU is pulling timing and then adding it right back off and on. Timing is set at 12. Boost still comes on strong and normal. I checked my oil today and that's fine. Also checked my plugs and they appear to be normal... They are black around the outside, and the strap is sort of a brownish color (not much yellow or white, but not much black). I assume this is normal?

My 30K mile checkup is coming up in about 1.5 months, and maybe that will fix the problem? could it be valve lash or something of that sort? This just started maybe about a week ago or so, so I don't know if it can wait another month. It's not a big deal, just that I don't like my car sort of hiccuping like that. The car has a stock FPR, and then the JR FPR... could the stock FPR be somehow bad?

OR, could it be a problem with the JR FPR, or the JR fuel modifier? I don't have the JR map mod, and actually wasn't planning on getting it unless absolutely necessary. I'm not sure if the map mod would resolve this intermittent problem or not.

Any suggestions? Any questions? Look forward to hearing from you guys.

[newt2]

It sounds like you may be getting the ever famous JRSC part-throttle detonation.

If you haven't already done it, get colder plugs. Also try playing with your fuel pressure a little bit. Tighter = more rich, looser = more lean. Since detonation is a lean condition try tightening it up about a quarter turn at a time. Drive the car around for a while each time (this will give it time to warm up) between changes to check for results.

Changing those two things should clear up the problem, if not it's time for a MAP controller.

[exciv2000]

my plugs are two steps colder (but are they the right color?)

The thing is, I'm at like 10 on the vacuum/boost gauge, not even at 0 yet. I'm nowhere near boost, so I don't get how it could be partial throttle detonation because from what I understood, it only happens either at 0 or while you were in boost at partial throttle.

One of these days maybe I should get a fuel pressure gauge just to be sure. The car has the Walbro GSS-342 pump in it, which is the 255lph pump, so I know that's not the problem.

[CSMsi311]

You should install that J&S and see if it catches anything. I'm somewhat busy this weekend but I won't mind lending you the service manual and the instructions i got from Svanhook (from Club Si). Send me a private message or something. I'll check this tomorrow around 11 or 12.

Jason

[exciv2000]

Rather than sending you another PM, where is that guy locally in Golden that works on Hondas. Somebody at Checkers recommended him to me one day a LONG time ago. I think you mentioned him the other day, and said he was like right down the street from you?

[1FAST4]

Is it doing this all the time or only on occassion? And how bad is this hesitation, severe? From your description of your plugs it sounds like your fuel misture is OK, maybe a little rich. What color is the porcelain center on your plugs? It should be a light brown, almost like the color of flesh.

[exciv2000]

The hesitation isn't very severe... it's not like the car lurches. It just really feels like it pulls timing, and then puts it right back maybe a second later. I can mostly just feel a slight change in inertia (or kinetic energy/movement), particularly in the gas pedal it feels like.

Anyways, the ceramic part is still mostly the color of ceramic, a little brownish here and there, and then dark black where the explosion seems to be starting on each plug. I'd say they have less than 8000 miles on them.

It happens mainly just on occassion. Last night I don't remember it happening at all, but that was after I took out every plug and then put them back in again... Also, I was a bit boost happy last night :)

[1FAST4]

And you don't notice it at all under boost?

[exciv2000]

nope, not at all. When boosting, it just flies, regardless of partial or full boost.

Another point I should make is that it mainly occurs not from a standing stop, but while cruising... Like I could be slightly depressing the gas to speed up to go from 2nd to 3rd, and in that time, I'll feel it. It's not related to which gear it's in tho, as I could be in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th and still feel it (not so much in 5th).

[1FAST4]

Sorry man, I don't know what to tell you. :confused: I would say, what you said before, It sounds like it is pulling timing. I just don't know why it would do that. I wouldn't worry about it too much if it's not causing a problem though. If it gets any worse, then I'd start to worry.

[exciv2000]

I wanted to wait a couple of days before reposting on this, just to make sure that the problem has been resolved. Apparently, all it took was pulling all the plugs and then putting them back in again. It doesn't seem to be doing it anymore at all. Problem fixed? I'll continue to feel for it for the next week or two as it warms up a bit from the daily 30* temps we're having. If it doesn't do it around 50*, then I'll consider the problem fixed :)

[1FAST4]

Cool!! :)

[gjcivic]

embaraced to say, but i HEAR that cars act really funny when a plug is even slightly loose.

Don't know how I know this...............:guns: :o

[exciv2000]

Well none of them felt loose, but I tightened them down a bit harder than I would have with a torque wrench when I put them back in, so maybe that's what fixed it. I suppose it *might* be a (even if only a slight remote) possibility that the boost took those things and pushed them up over time.

[gjcivic]

I'm really good at breaking stuff off by overtightening. I had an experiance with a plug loosening up with no boost. I know I had them all pretty snug. car ran like crap pulling slowly from a stop.
Felt just like a bad plug.
sutdder...studder...studder...vrrrrrroooommmmmmmm. .........:rolleyes: :D

[exciv2000]

heheh, yeah I still have two broken bolts in my valve cover from over tightening those little pieces of crap!

[1FAST4]

Me too!! Damn those things!!

[exciv2000]

man, this shit is still happening to me. I'm not exactly sure what the problem is. I noticed it the most yesterday. For instance, if I'm just cruising along, and then I apply more pressure to the gas instantly to move a bit faster, but am still between 5 and 10 on the vacuum gauge (not boosting at all) the car like bogs, and then pics up. It can't possibly be detonation, and I don't hear anything unusual.

It's either:
a) running too rich at partial throttle in vacuum because of maybe the 255lph fuel pump?
b) something wrong with a sensor somewhere like maybe the IAT or something?
c) who knows. Any suggestions? I'm thinking I might be taking my car to the dealership to have them look it over for the 30K mile checkup sooner than 30K, and mention this too them. Toby, ever heard of anything like this??

[newt2]

That's because you're too rich, the car will lurch a little and surge from time to time. You may also have a minor vacume leak, I had a big one a couple months ago and my car did similar things but much worse.

[exciv2000]

I'll adjust the V-AFC a bit and see if that helps any.

[newt2]

Try a fuel pressure adjustment first. The VAfC should be used for more minor corrections.

[exciv2000]

I could do that too by drilling that hole (1/16th) in the stock FPR. That will reduce the fuel pressure a bit, but I'm unclear about something... I was under the impression that the more fuel pressure you have, the more fuel will enter the engine. I guess I'm thinking that if my fuel pressure is around 40 PSI both with and without the JR FPR vacuum line attached, then at full boost at full throttle in high RPMs, the engine won't be getting as much fuel as it should be getting. Correct assumption or totally wrong?

[newt2]

I was thinking more along the lines of adjusting the screw on top of the JR fuel regulator that came with the blower. It should be mounted on the firewall somewhere.

Here's the deal with fuel pressure. Lower is better if you can get way with it. Pressure goes up because of restrictions in the fuel system. Your stock regulator and the stock 240cc injectors are pretty restrictive and don't flow enough at stock fuel pressure to handle forced induction.

The way turbo and SC kits get around this problem is to use that rising rate regulator that comes with the kit. It's connected to the manifold by a vacume line and when it sees boost it raises the fuel pressure by a preset amount (the Jackson regulator raises fuel pressure 5psi per 1psi of boost). This gets more fuel into the engine but has the bad side effect of straining both the pump and injectors. Too much pressure will shorten the life of the injectors by a lot.

What people do to get around that problem is use less restrictive injectors (310-440cc) and regulators (or they mod the stock one with a drill). After doing that they can run pressure in the 40s off boost and up into the high 70's low 80s on boost. Much safer.

If you adjust the Jackson regulator down you'll run less rich on the low end and put less strain on the injectors on the high end. Just don't lower it more than a quarter turn at a time. Drive it awhile before making any more adjustments. Better yet get a fuel pressure gauge to go under your hood.

[exciv2000]

I have the fuel pressure gauge under the hood. It says around 41ish idleing, and between 52 and 55 with the vacuum line disconnected from the JR FPR. I already turned down (counter-clockwise) the fuel pressure screw on the JR FPR just last week to get it to go between 52 and 55, because it used to be at around 56+ at idle.

FWIW, the V-AFC isn't that much of a minor correction... In fact, for every 2 negative steps/reductions on the graph for lo cam WOT, I gained .2 seconds at the track. :) I didn't even touch the low cam narrow, hi cam narrow or WOT.

[Brian]

Originally posted by exciv2000
I have the fuel pressure gauge under the hood. It says around 41ish idleing, and between 52 and 55 with the vacuum line disconnected from the JR FPR. I already turned down (counter-clockwise) the fuel pressure screw on the JR FPR just last week to get it to go between 52 and 55, because it used to be at around 56+ at idle.

FWIW, the V-AFC isn't that much of a minor correction... In fact, for every 2 negative steps/reductions on the graph for lo cam WOT, I gained .2 seconds at the track. :) I didn't even touch the low cam narrow, hi cam narrow or WOT.

Even after drilling my regulator my pressure at idle with the vacuum line connected is at 40. What is yours at Pat? I don't remember how much mine dropped after drilling. My FMU is also screwed al the way out. I need to drop my pressure some more, but i'm out of adjustment room unless I buy a V-AFC or something.

[exciv2000]

Originally posted by newt2
... Your stock regulator and the stock 240cc injectors are pretty restrictive and don't flow enough at stock fuel pressure to handle forced induction.

The way turbo and SC kits get around this problem is to use that rising rate regulator that comes with the kit. It's connected to the manifold by a vacume line and when it sees boost it raises the fuel pressure by a preset amount (the Jackson regulator raises fuel pressure 5psi per 1psi of boost). This gets more fuel into the engine but has the bad side effect of straining both the pump and injectors. Too much pressure will shorten the life of the injectors by a lot. ...


Because of what you said, I think that's the reason why I am apprehinsive about turning the JR FPR screw anymore and/or drilling a whole in the stock FPR. What it sounds like to me is that the SC kit is doing what it's supposed to be doing, which is raising fuel pressure, which is allowing more fuel to enter the engine. So if I lower the fuel pressure and run in the 70 - 80 PSI range during boost, wouldn't that mean that the engine is not getting as much fuel as it would be getting at say 100-120 PSI??

[newt2]

So if I lower the fuel pressure and run in the 70 - 80 PSI range during boost, wouldn't that mean that the engine is not getting as much fuel as it would be getting at say 100-120 PSI??

No because by modding the fpr you're actually increasing the size of the "pipe".

Think of it like a water faucet. You can get the same amount of water from a small faucet spraying with a high pressure or a big hose spraying at a lower pressure.

BTW, be carefull with that VAFC. It's not a good idea to play with it too much if you're not on the dyno with a wideband O2. You can probably clean up your low throttle settings without one, but just be carefull.

Brian,

I still ddon't have a gauge. I need to buy one. Do you sell them?

[Brian]

Originally posted by newt2



Brian,

I still ddon't have a gauge. I need to buy one. Do you sell them?

Are you wanting an air/fuel gauge? I can get autometer, jackson racing, apex-i, just about anything as far as that goes.

[newt2]

No I need one of those B&M fuel pressure gauges like theone under your hood. I've got a boost and A/F gauge.

[exciv2000]

Originally posted by 99SIVTEC


i'm out of adjustment room unless I buy a V-AFC or something.

If you want V-AFC? I'll give it to you for say $150, does that sound fair. I've only had it about 6 months. By selling that and my ultrasafeguard, I could then get the EBL+EFVC and play with fuel that way.

[Brian]

Originally posted by exciv2000


If you want V-AFC? I'll give it to you for say $150, does that sound fair. I've only had it about 6 months. By selling that and my ultrasafeguard, I could then get the EBL+EFVC and play with fuel that way.

I might take you up on that. Let me think about it for today. I'll get back to you this afternoon....

[Brian]

Originally posted by newt2
No I need one of those B&M fuel pressure gauges like theone under your hood. I've got a boost and A/F gauge.

Ahhh I thought you had an a/f gauge. I think I can get the B&M gauges. Let me make a call real quick and let you know.

[exciv2000]

hey pat I just got mine from summitracing.com for I think $29. The part you need is BMM-46054 :)

[CSMsi311]

Brian,
I am also interested in getting a B&M fuel pressure gauge. Let me know if you can get some. I'd rather support the local guy then the big company.

Jason

[Brian]

Originally posted by exciv2000


If you want V-AFC? I'll give it to you for say $150, does that sound fair. I've only had it about 6 months. By selling that and my ultrasafeguard, I could then get the EBL+EFVC and play with fuel that way.

I'll take it. I don't know how long it will be before I can get a standalone, so I better not pass up the opportunity.

[exciv2000]

Sounds good. Let me know how soon you want it. I'd like to sell my J&S UltraSafeguard (brand new) and dual monitor to someone as well so that I have the money to get the EBL+EFVC, and then I would like to have the EVFC correct any fuel changes I have set in the V-AFC before I actually hand it over to you, otherwise I'll be running pretty rich and boggy for a while. If I can get those two things off my hands soon and order the EBL+EFVC soon, it's all yours. Sucks that the new ones coming out are going to be better and cheaper and yet I don't feel that I can wait unless he brings them out like next month or something.

I just realized how much $150 is a steal. They're selling those for upwards of $300 brand new (I think I bought it new for $295). They're going for around $250+ on ebay. Oh well, I'll stand firm.

[Brian]

Originally posted by exciv2000
Sounds good. Let me know how soon you want it. I'd like to sell my J&S UltraSafeguard (brand new) and dual monitor to someone as well so that I have the money to get the EBL+EFVC, and then I would like to have the EVFC correct any fuel changes I have set in the V-AFC before I actually hand it over to you, otherwise I'll be running pretty rich and boggy for a while. If I can get those two things off my hands soon and order the EBL+EFVC soon, it's all yours. Sucks that the new ones coming out are going to be better and cheaper and yet I don't feel that I can wait unless he brings them out like next month or something.

I just realized how much $150 is a steal. They're selling those for upwards of $300 brand new (I think I bought it new for $295). They're going for around $250+ on ebay. Oh well, I'll stand firm.

Actually he is no longer selling the ebl +efvc. He told me to pull them from the store untill the new unit comes out. I can find out a time frame though.

[exciv2000]

dammit! :Peace:

[Brian]

Yeah I know the timing sucks, but honestly the ultimate fuel controller/ EBL is going to be way cool. SOunds like it will rival a lot of standalones as far as fuel tunability.

[1FAST4]

OK maybe I am not understanding you guys. But if you are on stock injectors and your fuel pressure is at 40 psi at idle which would equate to approx. 70-80 psi at WOT you are running too lean! If you are running stock injectors with the JR FPR, your base fuel pressure needs to be no less than about 55 psi. If you have any questions about your air/fuel ratio just have it tested at a shop. You mixture should be no more than 12.5

[exciv2000]

you know what, that's what I thought too, but it's working and I'm not running any leaner or richer since drilling a hole in the stock FPR. My fuel pressures right now are:
Both vacuum lines attached (stock FPR and JR FPR) = 37-39 PSI
Stock FPR vacuum line detached = 44-46 PSI
JR FPR vacuum line detached = 44-46 PSI
Both vacuum lines detached (stock FPR and JR FPR) = 46-48 PSI
And there is no detonation. I'm thinking about putting it back to stock timing as well.

[2000SiVTEC]

it has a lot to do with the altitude we are at in Colorado. I have had my car this way for 6 months now and no problems what so ever

[exciv2000]

yeah but what if I drive to vegas and get into a streetrace there, will I have to tune the car again for that altitude? sea level?

[Brian]

Yeah if you are tuned for here chances are you will blow your engine if you go near sea level without richening the car way up....

[exciv2000]

hmm, nothing an EBL evo couldn't handle, right? :)

[Brian]

Originally posted by exciv2000
hmm, nothing an EBL evo couldn't handle, right? :)

Exactly ;)

[Mr. NoSkills]

if it comes back you might check out your o2 sensor(s).
I've seen a lot of the older civics have this same problem, turns out the o2 sensor is bad. maybe you got a little happy with the v-afc and burnt it out or something?
just an idea.

[exciv2000]

Originally posted by tdjb-potc
if it comes back you might check out your o2 sensor(s).
I've seen a lot of the older civics have this same problem, turns out the o2 sensor is bad. maybe you got a little happy with the v-afc and burnt it out or something?
just an idea.

Are you suggesting I check out the o2 sensor now? That might be a good idea and would save me some dough. It came back, the partial throttle, hesitation. After carefully monitoring the A/F gauge and vac/boost gauge in combination, I believe that it is some form of tip-in detonation, which never occured before about this past month or so. I was thinking cartech route temporarily until the EBL evo comes out, and then probably run both of them simultaneously. Here's some more details about what problems I'm experiencing currently and what I'm thinking about doing about them: http://www.superhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=78667#post78667

If you have any suggestions, please don't hesitate to let me know... I want to get this fixed very soon.

[exciv2000]

TTT. Tip in detonation at 10 vacuum constantly. What to do??? Need assistance fast! I'm thinking:
1) Check the o2 sensor
2) Richen the JR FPR up quite a bit
3) Buy a Cartech 2025 FMU
4) Buy the JR map controller
I want this fixed FAST! I should be at the meet tomorrow, so Brian, Steve, Pat, if you guys want to drive my car and check it out, please let me know! That way you should be able to tell exactly what's wrong.

help!!

[exciv2000]

TTT. I got my map controller installed today, thanks to Jim Helbing (If you don't know him, you should as he is a very knowledgeable honda tuner). I took a short 20 minute drive and loved the instant power... The thing is running pig rich on the A/F meter, and that is with the tip-in fuel pressure (meaning with the vacuum line detached from the JR FPR) at 44 PSI. Base fuel pressure is 38. I could probably go down to 40 or lower on the tip-in PSI and get more power out of it, but I think I'm also going to advance the timing past stock (it's at stock now (16), just moved it up from 12). I love the instant power, it's like I just had the SC installed today, that's what it feels like. Now I can safely drive to work tomorrow :)

Thank you Pat for your information and tips on the setup and installation, and for letting me see it up close first hand. You were quite instrumental in my decision making process, along with Jim's advice on why not to get the cartech (because I don't have bigger injectors). No more tip-in detonation, YAY!

BTW, Jackson's pricing on these went up to $209, but Jim was still offering them for $179. Sorry Brian and Steve, I would have ordered it from you guys but I waited a long time to hear back from you guys (still waiting to hear back on the 10 PSI pulley), and I just couldn't wait any longer to fix this damn problem.

Question, why does my V-AFC now read +0.20 or so in full boost, whereas before it was reading -100 something. I know it sees boost now, but I don't get the 0.20, I mean, shouldn't it be reading something like 6.00???

[Pang]

hmm on my old civics when im going about 30 in fifth gear and hit the gas hard the car will hestitate and jerk but the car still runs good. ::shrugs::

[CSMsi311]

sounds great.. I should get one.

Jason

[newt2]

Originally posted by exciv2000
Question, why does my V-AFC now read +0.20 or so in full boost, whereas before it was reading -100 something. I know it sees boost now, but I don't get the 0.20, I mean, shouldn't it be reading something like 6.00???

Cool man, I'm glad it helped out the problem. The MAP converter really is a nice trick. I don't think it gives optimal power but it makes the car run like it came with the blower.

As for your question, that's what the MAP converter does. It takes the boost reading from your MAP sensor and translates it to what the ECU can read. If you just installed the block off plate and not the black box your ecu would read boost and immediately throw a code and go into limp mode. Instead, the black box intercepts the signal and changes it to max reading the ecu can handle as soon as you go into boost. This makes the ecu think the engine's under heavy load and causes it to enrich the mixture sooner.

It also lies to the ecu about inlet temps, which is why you have to splice the IAT wire. This gets a timing advance out of the ecu under boost. The old relay box did the same thing.

[exciv2000]

threw a CEL today on the way to work. I'm almost positive because it's running rich (I smoked a neon in the process :D) so I think I'll cut the power and reconnect, then lower the tip-in fuel pressure to about 40, and also push the timing to fully advanced. If it throws a cod after that, I'll mess with the V-AFC a bit, and do some 5th gear pulls uphill in partial-throttle, partial boost to check for detonation... If there isn't any and I can eliminate any further CELs, it'll be good to go :)