Preparing for boost!!!

[Conrad]

OK after a lot of thinking the K20 swap is just going to be too expensive for not enough vroom!!

So next payday the GSR block has an appointment at Darton for MID sleeves. I was going to go with the .84 bore size. They are also going to build the bottom end. This will include JE 9 to 1 pistons and JE rods and new bearings and pretty much everything else that can be replaced. They were going to build it. Bore and Line hone the block. Change the crank to an LS. This should bring it to about 2.1 liters of displacement. All this will cost 3K

Here are the question and opinions I would like to talk about.

With this setup what all should be done to the head?

Tobi if I just have them sleeve it and send it back can you build the bottom end cheaper? I would rather give you my money then them.

I want to be able to daily drive at 25 plus pounds of boost so what other things am I looking at? IE types of engine managment? Injectors? Which turbo would be best for daily fun driving?

Any other information if im missing something..

Thanks in advance for all the info!

[servion]

What's your power goal? That is what you need to tell us to be able to help guide you with turbo selection, EMS and injectors.

Also, be carefuel with your bore... at 84mm, there isn't much left with a darton to overbore if something goes wrong. I'm personally still running 81 myself, and I'll step it to 82mm when I do another rebuild (probably after the season it over).

As far as headwork goes, give us your goals, but you can never go wrong with atleast upgraded dual-valve springs and titanium retainers. Its very beneficial to have those for turbo setups, especially high-revving ones.

25psi doesn't mean anything until you know at least what turbo you're doing it with.... let us know how much power you want to make.

[Conrad]

What's your power goal? That is what you need to tell us to be able to help guide you with turbo selection, EMS and injectors.

Also, be carefuel with your bore... at 84mm, there isn't much left with a darton to overbore if something goes wrong. I'm personally still running 81 myself, and I'll step it to 82mm when I do another rebuild (probably after the season it over).

As far as headwork goes, give us your goals, but you can never go wrong with atleast upgraded dual-valve springs and titanium retainers. Its very beneficial to have those for turbo setups, especially high-revving ones.

25psi doesn't mean anything until you know at least what turbo you're doing it with.... let us know how much power you want to make.

I thought that the darton sleeves were enlarged when you get 84mm ones. If that isnt true then that makes since to keep to the stock 81mm. I would like to have 450 to 550 HP with some good torque numbers also, hince the reason I was going to go with the 84mm. I like a lot of pull right off the line but it feels better to have more middle to upper end power to pull past people after they think they have you.... Especially those AWD people. I agree with the springs and retainers. What about cams? I dont want the thing sputtering too much at low RPM's but I also dont want to go so conservative that im not getting a lot of potential out of the engine. I do want to keep it fairly reliable so I am trying to plan it all out before I start down a certain boosted application.

[Zach]

a GT35 turbo looks like it is a good size. also, you are probably going to need like 720cc injectors, and running that much boost, i would think a stand alone EMS would be a good idea. LoveFab makes a killer manifold, so i would go with one of those as well. tial wastegate (probably a 45mm) and a tial BOV are good options as well. i would reccomend the Edelbrock intake manifold and matched throttle body, i have heard that they are great for mid and top end power. other than that, i would reccommend like a 276/264 cam, they seem to be pretty well suited for turbo applications and come without a super harsh idle, but i could be wrong. hope that works

[rmcdaniels]

I don't think your bore has much to do with your torque curve, that would be more dependent on your crank and transmission gearing. My Dartons are at 84mm and I can probably bore it out to 84.5 and 85 if I need to get a rebuild or two out of it, but you may want to go with a smaller bore, because based on your stated intentions you may need to leave in enough extra room for a couple of extra rebuilds. What you really may want to think about is your static compression and the amount of boost you want to run. 25+ PSI on 9:1 pistons, especially with an LS crank, is not a good idea if you want it to be reliable. That puts your effective compression at over 24:1. I'd be careful about revving that setup up too high as well with the LS crank.

[servion]

As far as turbo goes for your goals, I would suggest something along the lines of a SC61 with the T04S cold-side cover, or a t3/t67, or the GT35R. You can definitely make those # while still using a t3 hotside.

Your planned setup is quite similar to my current setup. 9:1 pistons, 81mm bore. With this, I made 524WHP at 22psi, and I had a hard fuel-cut at peak torque. Basically, if you look at the dyno graph, right at peak torque point, it forms a peak and the torque drops. I could feel the car hesitate on the dyno, and the a/f dropped to like 14:1!!!! (The problem was that my fuel pump could not get the required amount of fuel to the engine). Point being, that setup will make a good solid 550whp+

With that much power, the only real way you're going to get a low-end is with an anti-lag 2-step launch (which is very nice :)). You can daily drive these turbos... jsut don't expect much power below 5000rpms. I actually like it that way because the car drives like a normal, every-day car down low, and then when you open it up its madness.

As far as cams go, use GSR or type-r cams. I was using GSR cams with stock cam gears. (You can actually gain significant power with GSR cams if you use adjustable cam-gears to combat reversion with a little overlap. Type-r cams are even better, and generally the extra overlap from them will negate the need for adjustable gears.) People have put down over 800WHP with GSR cams, so there's no real need to do anything aftermarket.

Do keep in mind that its not going to be very wise to push that much power on pump gas. I made 403WHP at 13psi on a crappy tank of 91, and even that was pushing it. Granted, people have (and still do) make more power than that on pump, but you're asking for trouble. Its stressful, and if you get a bad tank of gas, kiss your engine goodbye. I personally like to tune to about 350-375 MAX WHP on pump gas. I would recommend 1000cc injectors. You will regret any smaller, and it certainly doesn't hurt to have them that big.

EMS is a matter of opintion (to a point). I prefer the AEM EMS. Its got a great 2-step with antilag built in that allows me to build 10psi+ of boost off the line. Many people like the hondata s200 system. You could try out autronic :)!!!!

Also, I'm spinning my LS crank to 9000rpm without issues. full-race geoff ran his 500whp setup daily (LS crank spinning it to 9k) for 60k miles. He pulled it to rebuild it only because the rings were getting old. Seriously, if you can get 60k out of a built high HP honda motor that you exercise regularly, you're doing something right.

[rmcdaniels]

I prefer the AEM EMS. Its got a great 2-step with antilag built in that allows me to build 10psi+ of boost off the line.
I've got that set up on my EMS and it works like magic, instant torque right off the line, too much torque even, and it sounds like someone set off a box of hand granades under the hood.

[HONDA GHANDI]

I can probably do the rotating assembly cheaper. (better too)

Im going with Servion about the crank. Honda doesnt make a bad crank, If it is set up right then there are no worries with an LS crank. As far as bore goes its really up to you. If you think you want this motor to be around forever adn plan on doing more than one freshen or rebuild in the future than stay below the 84 mm mark. Blocks are getting harder and harder to find so blowing one up and finding a replacement isnt going to be an option in a few years. Personally I like big bore engines, it makes for some good running cars. My current project is a 90mm block with 90mm stroke WEEEEE! should be fun.

[Conrad]

I can probably do the rotating assembly cheaper. (better too)

Im going with Servion about the crank. Honda doesnt make a bad crank, If it is set up right then there are no worries with an LS crank. As far as bore goes its really up to you. If you think you want this motor to be around forever adn plan on doing more than one freshen or rebuild in the future than stay below the 84 mm mark. Blocks are getting harder and harder to find so blowing one up and finding a replacement isnt going to be an option in a few years. Personally I like big bore engines, it makes for some good running cars. My current project is a 90mm block with 90mm stroke WEEEEE! should be fun.

Thanks for all the good information!!

OK so its 1150 for darton to just do the MID sleeves.. I will go with the 81mm. Tobi how much would it be for you to install the new pistons, bearings, crank, rods, and whatever else im missing? With you providing the new parts?

RMCDANIELS... after hearing servions post I dont think that I would have to go to 25 + pounds to meet my goal... Maybe daily driving around 18 to 20. I was thinking that the added displacement was the best way to add torque?

Servion... Do you daily drive your car?

What would be the best I could hope for to make a reliable daily driver as far as tuning? 300, 350 HP ?

And AEM EMS vs Hondata? What are the pros and cons to these?

Turbo wise... Toby can you order kits? Is there a kit that would fit my application well or should I part this together?

[rmcdaniels]

RMCDANIELS... after hearing servions post I dont think that I would have to go to 25 + pounds to meet my goal... Maybe daily driving around 18 to 20. I was thinking that the added displacement was the best way to add torque?

I make 380WHP on 20 PSI on a B16, but my turbo is small and boost drops off to about 17 PSI by the time I hit 9000 RPM. I also have lower compression (8.4:1), so my setup is a bit different from yours.

What would be the best I could hope for to make a reliable daily driver as far as tuning? 300, 350 HP ?

I've been daily driving mine reliably for a year or two now, had the head off of it recently and everything is in great shape. I've heard that going above 400 daily driven seems to be the point where some people have started to have problems, but I've never tried it.

And AEM EMS vs Hondata? What are the pros and cons to these?

http://www.highaltitudeimports.com/t25769-.html

[2fastNturn]

My freind has a sc61 on a built gsr motor.... 15 psi, smokes the tires in 1st, 2nd gear, and sometimes 3rd. He has a lsd and Flaken Azenas (sp?).

High boost and horsepower is useless on the street in a frontwheel drive car, unless you are going to run drag radials all the time or only racing on the highway.

[servion]

Thanks for all the good information!!

OK so its 1150 for darton to just do the MID sleeves.. I will go with the 81mm. Tobi how much would it be for you to install the new pistons, bearings, crank, rods, and whatever else im missing? With you providing the new parts?

RMCDANIELS... after hearing servions post I dont think that I would have to go to 25 + pounds to meet my goal... Maybe daily driving around 18 to 20. I was thinking that the added displacement was the best way to add torque?

Servion... Do you daily drive your car?

What would be the best I could hope for to make a reliable daily driver as far as tuning? 300, 350 HP ?

And AEM EMS vs Hondata? What are the pros and cons to these?

Turbo wise... Toby can you order kits? Is there a kit that would fit my application well or should I part this together?

I do not daily drive my car, but I definitely could. There are 2 reasons that I don't:
1) I don't trust leaving it anywhere without myself in it. I don't want to go to dinner or a movie and walk out to find my car stolen. I've put too much time and $$$ (not to mention sweat and blood) into this car to have it get stolen
2) I have another civic hatch (the one you saw when I bought your intake manifold) which gets 42+ MPG. Its simply a lot cheaper to drive the slow car every day. But, I would have no hesitation to driving my fast car daily in terms of reliability.

There is no real "threshhold" at where a turbo honda becomes unrealiable. The more power you make, the harder it is on the parts, plain and simple. It also really depends on how often you push its limits. If you drive everywhere with the throttle flooed at 20+psi of boost on a big turbo, your car is going to wear a lot faster than if you don't work it hard too often. The benefit of a turbo setup like this is that you don't have to work the motor hard to daily-drive the car... but the power is there if you need/want it. If you build the motor right (or you have Tobi build it) and its tuned properly, there is no reason that a high HP honda can't be reliable to daily drive. The only difference is the size of the slug that's hanging off of it. Do realize that pushing out 450WHP+ is very stressful on a motor, and its going to be difficult to get 100,000 miles out of it.

The only real difference that will take your car to make 300WHP versus 450+WHP is the size of the turbo and if you've got the nuts to turn up the boost. That, and some of the clearances when the motor is being assembled. I suggest choosing your turbo and final WHP goal before you have the motor assembled so Tobi can select a proper ring gap, etc. for you.

I prefer the AEM EMS, but there are positives to both systems. If you don't care about tuning it yourself, the s200 is a great system. If you want to get into the system and start tinkering around, the hondata system will cost right around the same amount of $$$ as the AEM system. Tobi is a great hondata tuner. Just make sure you know that anytime you make some changes to your setup (regardless of the EMS you use), you're going to want to get it tuned again. There are many turbo kits that will fit your sitation. Choose a final power goal and price-range to help select one.

[kevino002]

if you ever want to turbo your honda read this thread!!!!
man this thing is full of GREAT info.

[Conrad]

As far as AEM EMS... which do I go with... The model for my 92-95 civic or the integra one?

[servion]

If the chassis is 92-95, the AEM EMS part #'s are exactly the same.

[B20badboy]

What are the advantages / disadvantages to running the LS crank in a GSR / Type r block?

[Conrad]

What are the advantages / disadvantages to running the LS crank in a GSR / Type r block?

Bigger Stroke

[B20badboy]

I thought you coudnt run like type r / gsr rods on a ls crank is this the case? If you use the ls crank do you have to use ls rods?

[Conrad]

that I dont know... but when I do get this thing built it will get replaced with je rods and pistons and what rods toby says to get

[servion]

The LS has a longer stroke and a shorter rod. So, if you use an ls crank in a b18 bottom end, youmust use rods with the same length of LS rods.

But, if you're already into the motor enough to change out the crank, you might as well upgrade the rods. Run an LS crank and aftermarket LS rods

[B20badboy]

Just wondering cause I have aftermarket Rods but they are for a GSR But I have a B18a block,ls rods w/ srp pistons, crank, etc... I want to run a built c5 bottom end with my saenz rods with my b16 head with gsr cams. I also have some Jun springs will proably run some type r retainers or something like that. Where are you contacting about the sleeves? Is that installed or is that installed with the sleeves on the price? I can get the sleeves decent priced but if it gets too expensive I would just buy a dart block.

[Conrad]

Just wondering cause I have aftermarket Rods but they are for a GSR But I have a B18a block,ls rods w/ srp pistons, crank, etc... I want to run a built c5 bottom end with my saenz rods with my b16 head with gsr cams. I also have some Jun springs will proably run some type r retainers or something like that. Where are you contacting about the sleeves? Is that installed or is that installed with the sleeves on the price? I can get the sleeves decent priced but if it gets too expensive I would just buy a dart block.

big balla

[blue]

if you ever want to turbo your honda read this thread!!!!
man this thing is full of GREAT info.
for sure..might need to sticky this bad boy ;NutKick;

[B20badboy]

for sure..might need to sticky this bad boy ;NutKick;
Maybe Blue I could meet you and stick to this:guns:
:guns: - Blue

[B20badboy]

big balla
Why you say that?

[Conrad]

Few more tech questions...

What is the big difference between a closed deck and a open deck? I have heard a few different opinions on this as far as cooling vs block strength. Also gsr oil squirters I have heard a few different opinions on this. I have heard when you go to a forged piston they dont do much good and that its better to plug them to keep oil pressure up.

Thanks again for all the good info!

[rmcdaniels]

Few more tech questions...

What is the big difference between a closed deck and a open deck? I have heard a few different opinions on this as far as cooling vs block strength. Also gsr oil squirters I have heard a few different opinions on this. I have heard when you go to a forged piston they dont do much good and that its better to plug them to keep oil pressure up.

Thanks again for all the good info!
I don't think closed deck is necessary on a B-series unless you are going to be making a lot of power, like over 700HP. I've heard that closed deck sleeves can cause eneven cooling around the top of the cylinder, which makes sense, but I've never used them. I have open deck Darton sleeves and I think the most important thing is that they are installed correctly. I currently make over 400WHP and have no problem with the open deck sleeves. I use my oil squirters, and any VTEC engine oil pump should pump enough oil to run the squirters and maintain oil pressure. I have to put a pinhole restrictor on my turbo oil feed to keep the oil pressure from blowing out my turbo oil seals.

[HONDA GHANDI]

Oil squirters are for two reasons:
1. cooling the bottom of the piston.
2. oiling the wrist pin and rings.

If you take away those two properties then the piston relies on splash from the crank to oil and cool itself. I think Honda had some good ideas when they were designing these engines. I will stick with my squirters thank you.

Open deck is better for high temp use and street use. Closd deck for high HP use and alcohol engines where the boost levels reach 50+ psi and cooling is not as much an issue due to the length of time the engine is in use. (no more than 9 seconds at full power hopefully :D)

[Conrad]

Good Info! Thanks guys...

[boostedcrx9]

I don't think closed deck is necessary on a B-series unless you are going to be making a lot of power, like over 700HP. I've heard that closed deck sleeves can cause eneven cooling around the top of the cylinder, which makes sense, but I've never used them. I have open deck Darton sleeves and I think the most important thing is that they are installed correctly. I currently make over 400WHP and have no problem with the open deck sleeves. I use my oil squirters, and any VTEC engine oil pump should pump enough oil to run the squirters and maintain oil pressure. I have to put a pinhole restrictor on my turbo oil feed to keep the oil pressure from blowing out my turbo oil seals.
Seriously, people dont use closed decks unless you are building up some insane drag motor, boostin around town with a closed deck is probably not good!'burnout: