Thinking about a Vortech Supercharger

[rmcdaniels]

I'm getting tired of non-linear power delivery. I've already got a Vortech shaft drive assembly for my Whipple SC project, and I can pick up a cheap V1 S-trim blower from someone upgrading their 4.6L Mustang kit to a T-trim on ebay for a few hundred bucks. After I get my brackets made I can pull the shaft drive off the dummy engine and put it on the car because it will take a while to get the flanges and other stuff made for the Whipple project, so I'm thinking about doing it.

Has anyone here run one of the Vortech blowers? How was it? Any dyno results would be appreciated.

[Skaterkid]

From what I've seen with dyno charts on Vortech's on Civics, you'll have an even more non-linear powerband.

[rmcdaniels]

Here's essentially what I got:

http://s115271005.onlinehome.us/dyno37.JPG

And here's a Vortech on a 2000 Si:

http://s115271005.onlinehome.us/images/ramair479hpxlschart.gif

[SpeedStar91]

:drool:

[-=[Juztin]=-]

What about the possibility of the rotorex units as well? They seem to put some abnormally great torque down low while still being able to give top end. Damn that vortech can sure be spun pretty fast to put down 470 ish whp on a 2.0L. What kinda pulley was that guy running?

Do you just want to have a smoother power band?

(I would of loved to have put a blowzilla on my 3.5L, that would be wayyy cool, but I dont know of anyone who could fab up some kind of adapter plate to get it to work hmmm)

[rmcdaniels]

Rotrex dynos look like Vortech dynos, it's another centrifugical SC. The compressor of either unit is a turbo compressor.

HKS makes a Rotrex kit for the 350.

I want a linear torque band, it can be a mild arc or ramp, but not like the bell curve I get with a turbo. The big drawback I see with a centrifugical blower is that I don't get full boost until peak RPM, but short of a Roots or Lysholm compressor I don't see a way around that.

[doctorstupid]

I want a linear torque band, it can be a mild arc or ramp, but not like the bell curve I get with a turbo. The big drawback I see with a centrifugical blower is that I don't get full boost until peak RPM, but short of a Roots or Lysholm compressor I don't see a way around that.
Turbo ;)

I would go with a whipple or even a roots blower before a centrifugal. Though if you can get it cheap it may be a fun experiment. Won't that S-trim be comically large on that engine, though? Are there smaller, possibly better matched Vortechs available?

[rmcdaniels]

Turbo ;)

I would go with a whipple or even a roots blower before a centrifugal. Though if you can get it cheap it may be a fun experiment. Won't that S-trim be comically large on that engine, though? Are there smaller, possibly better matched Vortechs available?
Eventually I'll get my Whipple 1200AX on it, but I'm a slow fabricator so it may be a while. This would just give me a chance to try something different. I talked to Vortech and the S-trim is the right size for my engine build, the G-trim is a little too small. I'd really like a SC-trim, it has a better/more efficient design, but there's a bunch of S-trims floating around out there from 4.6L Mustang kits that upgraded to a T-trim, and I can pick one up for a few hundred, so I figure what the hell. Plus it'll give me an excuse to order a custom header, my Kamikaze is kind of crappy.

[myshtern]

So will your goal be to have linear and higher power?
Do you expect the power of the Killer Bee setup?

[rmcdaniels]

So will your goal be to have linear and higher power?
Do you expect the power of the Killer Bee setup?
I have enough power now, I just want linear delivery. I could make that much power on my engine build, but around 400WHP is plenty and hopefully it will stay reliable if I don't push it too hard.

[wild.irish]

i forgot which engine you're going to make happy with this Vortech?
i already started thinking about what I might do to my CRX if i choose to keep it as a second project. and i had ideas of supercharging. so i might be ready to buy vortech from you when you're done playing with it and will want to get rid for "a few hundred bucks" ;) somehow i don't want to buy a $2k supercharger for a car which cost me 4 times less than that!

[rmcdaniels]

Just a little old B16. There's a lot of Vortechs on ebay for cheap, but the drive assembly is kind of expensive, although I think it would still only be a few hundred if you ordered the right parts. You just have to get a blower from a Mustang 4.6 so you get one that spins CCW. It'll be an S-trim, which is kind of big, but it's cheap.

[wild.irish]

it's too early really, but yes, i'll be dropping either b-series or zc into CRX. and then wanted to play with something other than turbo. thanks for hints!

[-=[Juztin]=-]

I was looking at the ATI blowers, I dig not having to tap the oil pan with the C2. I was kinda curious about your whipple solution your looking at, would you just run a normal IC w/ that (when you get around to looking at it) or go with a water IC? Would you just fab up an adapter plate onto your head, or go with a custom plenum? (Do you know the air-flow specs of your whipple blower?) That'd be simply sick to have that kinda blower on your car :cool:

Anyhow I've heard good stuff about Vortech's S-trim blower on the 3.5L along with the R4 fuel/timing controller.

[rmcdaniels]

=-']I was looking at the ATI blowers, I dig not having to tap the oil pan with the C2. I was kinda curious about your whipple solution your looking at, would you just run a normal IC w/ that (when you get around to looking at it) or go with a water IC? Would you just fab up an adapter plate onto your head, or go with a custom plenum? (Do you know the air-flow specs of your whipple blower?) That'd be simply sick to have that kinda blower on your car :cool:

Anyhow I've heard good stuff about Vortech's S-trim blower on the 3.5L along with the R4 fuel/timing controller.
I'll mount the Whipple out front, over the clutch slave cylinder on backets bolted to the tranny housing. I'll drive it with a Vortech shaft drive (made a post with some pics of it a while ago) and run it through my FMIC. The Whipple pushes 1.2L/revolution and can be spun to 15000 RPM, so figure 636 CFM.That will probably limit me to 360WHP, but I'll have full boost at 2000 RPM. I may also get some higher compression pistons and run less boost, but I'll see how it goes, the Whipple has 80% adiabatic efficiency and 98% volumetric efficiency, so I should be able to do more with the boost I get than with any other kind of FI setup.

[fantasya98]

Whats the diff. btwn a whipple and a roots? I thought all vortechs were centrifugal, which would basically be a turbo ran by belts instead of exhaust gas.. enlighten me please

[rmcdaniels]

Whats the diff. btwn a whipple and a roots? I thought all vortechs were centrifugal, which would basically be a turbo ran by belts instead of exhaust gas.. enlighten me pleaseAll Vortechs are centrifugal, I'm just thinking of trying one until I get my Whipple set up, since I have the Vortech drive assembly.

EDIT - The difference between a turbo and a Centrifugal SC for me would be that the boost from the SC is fixed relative to RPM, where the boost from a turbo is not, so at a given RPM with the SC I will have a fixed amount of power because the impeller is always at the same speed at that RPM, where with a turbo it depends on where it is in the spooling up process. It's not too important for drag racing, but gets more important for other types of racing.

The Roots blower was originally designed as a fan to ventilate mine shafts. It scrapes air against against the housing, shoving it into the manifold to compress it in the manifold. It has relatively loose tolerances and some air gets pushed backwards through the blower and recirculated. It's most efficient making about 6 PSI of boost and starts losing efficiency if you go higher, heating up the air quite a bit at higher pressures (mine heated the air to >200 degrees at 11 PSI).

The Lysholm compressor (the twin-screw blower that Whipple sells) was originally designed to pressurize aircraft cabins to 1 BAR. It compresses air between the blower lobes and has very tight tolerances, frequently down to .001", so there is little to no blowby/recirculation. It's most efficient making 15 PSI of boost and can be run up to 20 PSI without losing very much efficiency. The problem with the Lysholm is that they only make them to spin clockwise, like most of the car engines in the world, so it's a PITA to install on a Honda engine that spins counter-clockwise. The Roots blowers from Eaton spin counter-clockwise, making it much easier to fit one on a Honda.

[fantasya98]

:) thx

[-=[Juztin]=-]

I'll mount the Whipple out front, over the clutch slave cylinder on backets bolted to the tranny housing. I'll drive it with a Vortech shaft drive (made a post with some pics of it a while ago) and run it through my FMIC. The Whipple pushes 1.2L/revolution and can be spun to 15000 RPM, so figure 636 CFM.That will probably limit me to 360WHP, but I'll have full boost at 2000 RPM. I may also get some higher compression pistons and run less boost, but I'll see how it goes, the Whipple has 80% adiabatic efficiency and 98% volumetric efficiency, so I should be able to do more with the boost I get than with any other kind of FI setup.
Very interesting, that Whipple setup sounds like A LOT of fun on paper. Anyhow back to your topic, it sounds like you definately have a flexible path with the Vortech setup. 470whp is a shitload even with a linear power band. Even with a more conservative setup, I think 400whp on a linear power band would still provide for a fun setup with some torque steer :)

Cheap is sometimes good, regarding picking up an S-trim blower off of a mustang'er, would you just have it re-built upon purchase by vortech or run it as is? I think that would be my only main concern with it. How about belts, have you heard of belt slipping issues with the vortech setup?

[rmcdaniels]

=-']Very interesting, that Whipple setup sounds like A LOT of fun on paper. Anyhow back to your topic, it sounds like you definately have a flexible path with the Vortech setup. 470whp is a shitload even with a linear power band. Even with a more conservative setup, I think 400whp on a linear power band would still provide for a fun setup with some torque steer :)

Cheap is sometimes good, regarding picking up an S-trim blower off of a mustang'er, would you just have it re-built upon purchase by vortech or run it as is? I think that would be my only main concern with it. How about belts, have you heard of belt slipping issues with the vortech setup?
I'd probably just run it and see what happens, I don't think a centrifugal is a long-term solution for me, just something to toy with. If I run 20PSI, then I'll probably need an 8-rib conversion kit to keep it from slipping.

http://www.payntechnologies.com/(cq25iy55jcsgov45xhrwo0qb)/products/prod-main.aspx?CategoryID=18&ProductID=103


I wouldn't mind doing a dual sequential turbo setup too, but I can't weld and I don't know any custom exhaust welders that are looking to work for free. Something like this would be interesting:
http://s115271005.onlinehome.us/images/Twin%20Turbo%20Drawing.jpg

I had this type of setup on my RX7 and loved it, Instant boost and big top end power.

[exciv2000]

Just FYI, here's one for sale: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7949438014&category=33577&sspagename=WDVW