what else, but brakes question again...

[wild.irish]

ok, debating two options:
1. replace oem size blanks every 3-4 months
2. put slotted oem-size rotors in hopes that they will be warping less intensively, and replace them every year? (same thing moneywise, i mean)

rotors i look at are brembo slotted versus wholesale pack of cheapest blanks from checkes/autozone/wherever.

question: did someone manage to cook slotted rotors? i suppose this is the same material as in blanks, only with slots. if i could chew on brembo blanks in 4 months, will i be able to chew on brembo slotted in 8 months? or maybe longer?

[wild.irish]

damn, 15 views and nobody who fried slotted rotors? ricers! 'burnout:

anyway, going with cheapest blanks for now... and will see later

[myshtern]

Do slotted on one side and OEM on the other - see which one wears out first

edit -
I originally said that as a joke, but now that I think of it, if they are the same size it wouldnt hurt to try slotted on one side and oem on the other.
Or would it?

[wild.irish]

i originally understood it as a joke, but later i also was thinking that it might not be totally disasterous. braking power shouldn't differ between a blank rotor and a slotted one to a point when one wheel would be braking sufficiently harder than another to cause loss of control.

however, it's still too expencive for an experiment ;)

edit: anyway, got cheapest blanks for now, and installing them instead of BWW :(

[rmcdaniels]

I warped and grooved my AEM rotors using the wrong pads. Talked to AEM about it and they said to use their pads and it wouldn't warp or groove them, something about the composition of the pads and the metal content. I got a set, but haven't installed them yet.

[wild.irish]

I'm also thinking that the reason for such fast death of my blank brembo's was the rotor/pad setup. well, what the hell, i'll try different setups now ;)

Roger, did you have slotted AEM rotors?

Edit: looks like AEM sold it's brake rotor line to PowerSlot in august 2004. but they say they continue to produce pads.

[HONDA GHANDI]

Is slowing down and saving your equipment an option? That car was designed with "adequate" brakes at BEST.

No one should be going through rotors as fast as you are. And on that note why again exactly do they need to be replaced? Are they too thin again? or just warped. (warped can be fixed you know)

[rmcdaniels]

I'm also thinking that the reason for such fast death of my blank brembo's was the rotor/pad setup. well, what the hell, i'll try different setups now ;)

Roger, did you have slotted AEM rotors?

Edit: looks like AEM sold it's brake rotor line to PowerSlot in august 2004. but they say they continue to produce pads.
I've got the slotted oversized ones, had them turned and they are fine now. Replaced my Bendix metallic pads with cheapo semi-metallic pads and they don't chew up the rotors, but they don't stop as well as the metallic ones did. Had my front ones off for a few weeks cause my drag wheel don't fit over them, but should have them on in a week or two, going drag racing Friday, maybe after that I'll put the rotors back on and try the new pads.

[wild.irish]

Is slowing down and saving your equipment an option? That car was designed with "adequate" brakes at BEST.
why is it that you have the power to make me feel guilty? i'm serious.
damn, i honestly try to drive like normal people do, but i can go so about only half the way. i will find a reason to speed up and fly through traffic and frying brakes as a result... i sometimes hate myself for this, but i just can't go slow ;)
No one should be going through rotors as fast as you are. And on that note why again exactly do they need to be replaced? Are they too thin again? or just warped. (warped can be fixed you know)
they're too warped. yeah, i know they can be resurfaced. two reasons why i want new rotors now - 1) i want to see if i remembered your lesson, 2) i need a non-warped rotors fast, before this weekend, cause i want to go skiing ;)
oh, and i'm putting RBF 600 also this friday. so i wanted this to be a fresh setup before the weekend.

actually, that's an idea you just served me - i will go with two pairs of rotors, and will resurface one while using another! this way they both will last me a long time! thanks, Tobi! :D

BTW, I got Bendix ceramics yesterday. haven't yet had a chance to see how efficient they brake, though.

[Weston]

Cheap pads will "warp" rotors like no other. It's almost always just pad deposits in the surface of the rotor. I don't think it really throws off the weight balance of the rotor; it mostly just alters the friction of the surface at various spots. Cheap pads (such as Albany brand) will do this really badly, but there are pads that don't have this problem. Every set of cheap Autozone pads (Albany brand) I've ever used has caused this "warping", but I'm on my 3rd set of Axxis Ultimates and have never had any warping whatsoever.

On many occasions, I've taken old "warped" rotors and used them with my track pads for two days of racing at Second Creek... they instantly lose any hint of that warped feeling, and they feel like new (just thin) when I switch back to street pads. Aggressive pads will tear into the surface of the rotor, which gets rid of the cheap pad deposits causing the problem. My track pads are very high friction (0.58 coefficient) and are like taking a grinder to the surface, so it's very effective, but even aggressive street pads like the Axxis Ultimates have the same effect (it just doesn't work as fast).

As for the rotors, cheap autozone blanks are your friend. For some cars, they now also carry a really cheap rotor (usually "ValuCraft" brand), but I have tried those and quickly found that the metal and strength is inferior, so don't waste your time on those. In my car's case, the crappy cheap rotor goes for like $16.99, and the original "cheap autozone rotor" goes for $21.99; the second one is the good stuff... I think the brand is Aimco or maybe even Albany. This is what the vast majority of Honda road course racers use with great results... It's cheap, the ventillation design is identical to Brembo blanks, and it holds up under abuse. I've found that although my race pads will wear the shit out of them (like any rotor), it takes a lot for them to develop a deep crack. I should point out that light surface cracking is ok and considered normal when used with aggressive pads, but anything deeper than the surface is a problem.

There's no use for slotted/drilled rotors or big brake kits on the street, other than "bling bling" and a way to get rid of your money. They really aren't even worth it on the road course either... the minimal benefit (if any) of slotted or drilled rotors is nothing compared to the cost, especially since we go through rotors every race weekend. Quality big brake setups are useful on the road course, but increase operating costs and you really can do pretty well with most stock sized rotors anyway; I also have safety concerns about many of these kits. The #1 way to increase braking grip, reduce overheating, and end "warping" is all in the pads that you choose.

[HONDA GHANDI]

Youre thinking of rotor oscillation Weston. When the pad itself grabs and slips on the rotor. In his case (and many others on accords especially) the heat generated by braking hard actually changes the shape of the rotor to that of a pringle. Any surface irregularity over about .004 of an inch canbe felt in the steering wheel above 25-30 mph. Ive seen them as bad as .020 warped and I usually just throw them away at that point. They are so badly burned to get there that cutting them straight again ususally makes them too thin. They just warp again. What you are referring to with the material transfer causes not so much a vibration in the wheel but a pulsing pedal and a jerky movement in the car when braking. Becoming more apparent when slowing to a stop. From what I saw last time looking at your brakes Dima it could be a little of both but I think from the weight of your car coupled with the fact that accord brakes are the suck, to find a permanent cure for this you may have to step up to the plate, take one square on the chin and get some oversized brakes.

[STIBungy]

Jeezus, leave it Alex to come up with the dumbest ideas. BTW, you dropped your wallet at BW3s. I turned it in to the cashier for you.

Dima, based on your driving habits(yes, I've seen your driving habits), I'd suggest a big brake kit for your car. Just because you drive fast doesnt mean your car will stop fast.

Do slotted on one side and OEM on the other - see which one wears out first

edit -
I originally said that as a joke, but now that I think of it, if they are the same size it wouldnt hurt to try slotted on one side and oem on the other.
Or would it?

[doctorstupid]

Metallic pads (and semi metallic to a lesser extent) will usually cause a lot of lining material transfer, which makes the rotor surface all wobbly and shit. Though of course different pad manufacturers have different formulas, certin will transfer less material than others. Severe and rapid heating and cooling can actually warp the mass of the rotor, but generally "warped" rotors are just the victims of metal transfer.

Try some ceramic pads, EBC makes some good ceramic shit, although they can get expensive depending on compound and application. Also I think Tobi has the right idea: big brake kit. I would also do what you can to improve airflow to the rotors, maybe take off the dust shields behind the rotors. Cheapo rotors will usually have fewer internal vents, which can make tem run a bit hotter than their OEM counterparts, something to watch out for.

[wild.irish]

just for the information, in July Tobi installed brembo blanks and Raybestos PG Plus. (not the cheapest, from what I know). first symptoms of warping i felt somewhere end august - early september. and got another pair of same raybestos, though the first ones were barely halfway through. it helped, but not for long, actually. about a week ago i put on my steelies back, and they have way less ventilation than 17"s that i used most of the time. either that (less heat ventilation) or something else, but last week became a nightmare to drive, cause brakes would go wildly hot and very very shaky within a minute from first touch on a brake pedal.
so i desided to try some other pads, this time Bendix CT-3 ceramic. what I just noticed when returning from work tonight - after driving for 5-10 minutes, I think I feel this vibration even without touching brake pedal. i mean, since pads are new and thick, they probably barely touch rotor and that heats it up enough to produce same effect without braking (though barely noticeable).

my understanding is that it's heat creating cementite incapsulations. I like the way it's described here: http://www.kingmotorsports.com/stoptech_tech_myths.asp (btw, thanks Weston, i remember you recommended this article, i like it alot)

[wild.irish]

oh, i was writing this for a long time, i guess ;)

well, yeah, afterall, i think i might go with bigger brakes after winter. but i need to use up my 14" winter tires first.
and i'm giving ceramic pads a try now, so we'll see how it goes.
Basically, with two pairs of rotors I'll survive winter, and then get a big brake kit, i think. I heard though that it's possible to get bigger brakes from something Honda-native? like from Acura? if i can get something from other Honda, i'd rather do that.

[STIBungy]

The accord wagon has larger front discs than yours and will bolt up, I believe. Rob would know that for sure.

[Weston]

Do not remove the heat shields behind the rotors. It will improve cooling, but there are definately reasons why Honda put those shields on there... it keeps crap out of your brakes, and it protects your ABS wires and lower ball joint from the excessive heat of the brakes. When running without heat shields, I melted the insulation right off of my ABS wires. I'm going to have to make my own little heat shield for the ABS wires and lower ball joint... (and probably clean the insides of the calipers every so often)

[doctorstupid]

Almost all cars have those dust/heat shields, as long as you carefully route your brake lines and ABS sensor wires and such and use lots of zip ties, you should be OK. I've never had a problem sans heat shields, and I pay really close attention to the mechanical components of my car so any debris that found it's way into the brakes would not be there long.

[myshtern]

Hung, why would my idea be so bad ~ other than the cost of it.
It would be a true experiment and he would know what is best for him.

Dima, you drove by me on Wadsworth like a week ago and I watched you race from one stop light to the next as if money was on the line :rofl:
Lay of the pedals, lead foot.

I installed Raybestos pads on the kia once and they sucked.
They squeeked and squeeled like no other.
They also had a higher metal content than what is neccesary on a Sportage according to the guy at brakes plus.

Is it necessary to change your pads everytime you turn your rotors?
I need to turn my rotors and buy new ones really bad but the pads have tons of life left on them.

[doctorstupid]

Alex, it isn't realy necessary unless the rotor had been scored and in turn resulted in a damaged pad lining surface. If there aren't grooves in the pads and they aren't tapered at all, go for it :)

But keep in mind that generally the second half of the pad will wear twice as quickly as the first half, so if they're half way down, just go spend the $30 and replace em while you're in there.

[wild.irish]

Dima, you drove by me on Wadsworth like a week ago and I watched you race from one stop light to the next as if money was on the line :rofl:
ooops ;)

I installed Raybestos pads on the kia once and they sucked.
They squeeked and squeeled like no other.
oh yeah, they did, very much so.

Also, guys, here's an interesting update.
remember this article i posted a link earlier in this thread? guy there said he never saw a warped rotor. and i used to believe him, cause otherwise his explanation was logical enough.

well, guess what - yesterday I witnessed my rotor warped beyond any reasonable limit!!! i had my car on the stands, and desided to run the engine for a while. and you know how in neutral sometimes your front wheels spin slowly when the engine is running. so, my left hub was rotating smoothly, while on the passenger side it would stuck once in a full circle, squeese through and then rotate and stuck again. and I think I even could visibly notice the warpage!!! and I was always wondering why is it that passenger side wheel is most often stuck to the hub, and i have to force it off. naturally, appears that the temperature on that hub is way higher than normal, due to excessive friction.

Another idea - can it be the wheel bearing gone bad?

anyway, tomorrow i'll try out of curiosity to measure this warpage before i discard these brake disks

[STIBungy]

Bleed your brake system the next time you change out the rotors/pads.

well, guess what - yesterday I witnessed my rotor warped beyond any reasonable limit!!! i had my car on the stands, and desided to run the engine for a while. and you know how in neutral sometimes your front wheels spin slowly when the engine is running. so, my left hub was rotating smoothly, while on the passenger side it would stuck once in a full circle, squeese through and then rotate and stuck again. and I think I even could visibly notice the warpage!!! and I was always wondering why is it that passenger side wheel is most often stuck to the hub, and i have to force it off. naturally, appears that the temperature on that hub is way higher than normal, due to excessive friction.

Another idea - can it be the wheel bearing gone bad?

anyway, tomorrow i'll try out of curiosity to measure this warpage before i discard these brake disks

[wild.irish]

Bleed your brake system the next time you change out the rotors/pads.
i'm putting in RBF600 and totally flushing whole brake system today.

edit: forgot to ask. how you guys take off the axle nut? it's frigging fried in, and on top of that it's a pain to block the wheel from rotating ;)
does air-wrench help here?

[STIBungy]

It's best to bust the axle nut off when the car is on the ground when you dont have air tools. Put some PB Blaster on it and let it sit for a bit.

i'm putting in RBF600 and totally flushing whole brake system today.

edit: forgot to ask. how you guys take off the axle nut? it's frigging fried in, and on top of that it's a pain to block the wheel from rotating ;)
does air-wrench help here?

[David]

get a 10 foot pipe and a 1" breaker bar, then hit it with a big hammer...might want to still use PB blaster

I had to rent a 40s weight lifter even with all that stuff, those things are in there tight :eek:

[Weston-work]

You guys are weak... Axle nuts are easy to get off. All you need is a decent breaker bar and a socket that fits it. I've never had any problem getting mine off, and I've done it a few times.

And David, what is a 1" breaker bar? Seems a little pointless... even a 1' "breaker bar" isn't really much of a breaker bar.

[wild.irish]

i was using wd40, but i guess it's not penetrative enough.

Weston, he probably means not the length of the bar, but the size of the adaptor ;)

[Weston-work]

Well then... 1" drive is a little overkill for this. I have no problems with a 3/4" drive and a 2-3' long breaker bar. iirc, I had to stand on the bar to break it loose once, but it wasn't bad at all.

[wild.irish]

I had to stand on the bar to break it loose once, but it wasn't bad at all.
seriously? i was almost ready to do this, but i was afraid that could in a way damage bearings..

[rmcdaniels]

You won't damage the bearings by standing on the breaker bar. I've had to do it before, and I'm huge.

[doctorstupid]

Impact wrench. Period. :)