futuresi goes all motor route

[TedR719]

My ass finally decided I'm going all motor for the little b16. I wont be the fastest Honda but will try to put the 1.6 liter into the 14's next year with either a jun or toda setup! :PIMP:

[2000SiVTEC]

Boost it....I highly doubt just cams will get you into the 14's. Plus I think a B20 or ls/vtec is the way to go for all motor. But at lest it will be a little differrent.......

[Controller]

Sorry man I'm ALL MOTOR. But with a B16 you dont have too much potential. They work great with a nice little turbo though. The fastest some of my friends have gone in a all motor B16 is some were around low 13's and with a turbo I've seen them in the high 11's. That is with slicks though.

[Controller]

And those cars that I was talking about are barely street legal.

[TedR719]

Thats the goal for now. 14's with the 1.6 then do something smart and put a b20 or b18 block under the head. The cams and stuff will remain so not like I will lose much if I ever decide to change out the bottom end. I'm not going all out to be the fastest honda but something that I will enjoy for now and you never know...

and yes 14's with a b16 will be hard as hell but I like a challenge...just like the rest of you ;)

[HONDA GHANDI]

I think thats a smart plan Ted. As you know boost can start to push that budget way past its intended figures. Because we all know once you bolt that kit on, you need more, more, more, more, more, more, more AAAAAAAAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!:eek:

[Brian]

Go for it dude, be different. Thats why I got the supercharger and set crazy goals with it.....

[Scuba_Steve]

Originally posted by FULLTHROTTLE
I think thats a smart plan Ted. As you know boost can start to push that budget way past its intended figures. Because we all know once you bolt that kit on, you need more, more, more, more, more, more, more AAAAAAAAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!:eek:

Very true Tobi, that's why I'm starting my all motor project in my 92CX. With my built B18C1 block and stock B16A2 head, 14's will be easy in my 2000lb hatch.:D After some head work I'll be hoping for a high 13.;)

[93BlackHatchSI]

Go for it Ted I want to see something diffrent. ;)

[newt2]

Toda cams, valve springs, pistons and rods. 12.5:1 compression, headwork, port matched everything and a standalone ECU with a 9500 rpm rev limit should get you into the low 14's at Bandimere.

Expensive but cool.

[TedR719]

What kinda pistons will set me with that type of compression? Or does Toda have an complete package like that?

I was think of slaping some CTR pistons and will rasie my compression to 11:1:1 and still be safe on pump gas.

[newt2]

Toda has some pistons that will get you close to 12:1, after that mill the head a little.

CTR pistons are a good choice if you want to run pump gas though.

[Brian]

Well if you don't want to spend an arm AND a leg I would look at endyn pistons, or JE's. I just don't like JDM stuff at all.

[TedR719]

Those Toda pistons are nice! You have to mill the head though for them? I've looked at his Toda C package but don't know too much about what needs to be done and if it's safe with pump gas...


drool...
http://godspeed.hack.net/images/Todapistons.jpg

[newt2]

I don't think you have to mill the head, unless you want more than 12:1 compression.

Toda parts are pretty sweet. There's a few guys on the ITR board running low 13's and even high 12's with a Toda engine. I've seen 230 whp out a few of them, street legal.

[HONDA GHANDI]

You can mill the head with those pistons but the valve to piston clearance becomes an issue. To do it right, pistons wil have to be grooved deeper, cloverleaf on head welded closed and remachined with the mill. stronger and faster valve train setup.
this being done, the comp. should be near 13.2:1 and be capable of 10K RPM. Now exrude hone the intake for more flow and youre talking 13's and possibly 12's in a sub 2000lb car.

[TedR719]

10k redline :eek:

Well I don't know if I wanna go that far, well I do, but I wanna keep it on pump gas, so I think the CTR pistons will be my choice for that, also I heard getting a different head gasket will slightly rasie the c/r.

10k would be so sweet but I know I'm lazy and if I forget to add the right fuel 10k and not sufficent fuel would make a nice explosion.

[newt2]

Just don't go to 10k all the time (yeah right ;))!

[Mr. NoSkills]

ok, check this out. most people will say i'm dumb or something, but I know of at least one person on hear who knows what I suggest usually works out well heh.
ctr pistons, sand them smooth, get rid of the numbers and what not, help prevent detonation.
jun 3's, end of story =)
portflow inner valvesprings and retainers with itr INTAKES on BOTH sides.
itr intake manifold with the itr throttle body.
itr header or if you've got the money a sms or hi-tech header (big bucks though).
Get an ecu that'll rev high. My itr with jun 2's worked well, but with jun 3's and that valvetrain you'll wanna go past what an itr will give you.
Good clutch, slicks and good driving that will get 14's in a hatchback.
Honestly, that would be a good set-up and it won't cost an arm or a leg, just tune tune tune!
Still able to drive on the streets, still able to use pump gas, all that stuff =)
But yeah dude, you've got the right idea, build the head, then swap out for a bigger block.

[TedR719]

JUN 3's you say or Toda C's?

I will be getting a JDM ITR header with hi-flow cat and custom 2.5 inch piping with a N1 muffler for my exhaust setup.

I'm pretty sure I can get a good price on the portflow valve springs thru the same guy I ordered my motor. CTR pistons looks like what I'll be doing with a different head gasket. So far the blueprint is coming along for this...

[Brian]

Sanding the edges of the pistons is DEFINETLY a GOOD idea! hard edges from machining lead to hot spots which lead to detonation.

[TedR719]

Right now I'm leaning towards JUN Stage III.

JUN Stage III cams/sprockets
JUN valvetrain
CTR pistons
Endyn Rods or ?
ITR or Skunk2 manifold
ITR throttle body
JDM ITR header
High Flow Cat
Custom Exhaust with N1 muffler
Fuel Pressure Regulator
Fuel Pump
Chiped ECU (jdmhondaparts.com)

what eles should I get, so far that's the list...

[Drwaz99]

Why not go with GODSPEEDS Toda B spec package with ECU? But hey maybe I'm a retard and you can get it cheaper though HAI. :o

[TedR719]

If I go Toda I wanna go with the C's. I see he has a pretty good deal for the B's, I just want the most power I can get, also I believe we can get JUN products...

[Drwaz99]

Hmmm..just some other ideas. With the Type 3's or Spec C's you'll probably want a header that flows more, like toda, spoon or the jun header and for track days a test pipe. A high flow cat will not flow enogh for those high life/duration cams.. And quite possible some RC 270 injectors(???). I have seroisly considered doing the Spec B package myself. Keep us informed! :)

[Brian]

I thinkk we can get you a pretty competative price on the JUN stuff, have to check on Toda....

[TedR719]

That what I'm trying to figure out, it says that with spec C's that you will have to run a test pipe. The JDM will do fine untill I can spend almost another grand on a header! I think with injectors RC 310 will do fine...

My whole goal is to have the car street leagle...


Originally posted by Drwaz99
Hmmm..just some other ideas. With the Type 3's or Spec C's you'll probably want a header that flows more, like toda, spoon or the jun header and for track days a test pipe. A high flow cat will not flow enogh for those high life/duration cams.. And quite possible some RC 270 injectors(???). I have seroisly considered doing the Spec B package myself. Keep us informed! :)

[Drwaz99]

I know what you mean on the headers being expensive. You might want to look into the "JDM" Dc sports 4-1 header. It's got a 2.5" collector. They are talking about it in one of the topics in the NA forum @ CSI. They say it might even give a couple more horsy's. I also read somwhere that some of the best injectors for the Spec C's/ Jun 3's are the Toyota 440's. Something about the reliability of the injector and how RC is not as reliable as some OEM ones.

[HONDA GHANDI]

i dont really think injectors are going to make or break this setup.
Heres why: 1. at high altitude there is less oxygen to burn in the volume of air the engine takes in at a certain rpm. Less oxygen to burn = less fuel needed to prduce stoichiometric efficiency.
2. This engine is a normally aspirated configuration with less than two liters. 310 cc/hr and 270 cc/hour injectors are capable of supplying fuel to a boosted engine that consumes two to three times the oxygen your car will ever use. 3. To better atomize fuel as it enters the combustion chamber it is better to spray it into the moving air gradually as it flows past the injector as opposed to spraying all the fuel into one section of air. This causes quench area and renders the fuel sprayed onto backs of valves, cylinder walls, any surface useless. Larger injectors really only provide High air consumption engines (turbo, SC, NOS ) a large amount of extra fuel at a faster rate thus keeping the runtime (duty cycle) low. This helps injectors stay cool giving less chance for failure.
A stock injector, from a CRV, TypeR, Prelude will flow more when held wide open than your engine will ever need. 4. The computer ultimatly decides how much fuel your engine uses. With a large injector, Teh ecm sees a rich condition and thus backs the duty cycle down giving you the same amount of fuel it would with a stock injector but now it has less time to atomize in the fuel rail.
These are just some things to keep in mind when tuning a fuel system.

[Brian]

I agree with Tobi. Most people have tuning issues up here because they listen to the sea level guys and run too much fuel. Look at my JRSC for example. I'm guessing over 200 hp at the wheels which is more than your NA setup will ever make and i'm doing just fine on stock injectors. As a matter of fact I have too much fuel, and thats with my rising rate fmu turned all the way down. If you do upgrade the injectors, do it last and only if needed which i'm guessing it will not be.

[Controller]

Get the Jun3's. We've test the Jun's, toda's and type R cam's and the over all best thing that we found out was that the Jun's are by far best for top end power. And with the b16 thats were you will be at high rpm's. Get the JDM header we've tested that as we and unless dyno's lie it was the best overall header we've found. Heres the site that we put all of our test on.
www.importreview.com

[Mr. NoSkills]

futuresi, your list looks perfect!
Forget the toda c's, jun 3's make the most power, end of story.
injectors? 310cc's will be plenty, not needed though, I honestly can see this setup work fine on stock injectors.
Dc "jdm" headers are nothing more then the basic dc header with a 2.5" collector welded on, they still don't do much.
jdm 4-1 will be just fine.
Like I said, if you wanted to spend a grip on a header, go sms or hi-tech, just as much as those expensive japanese headers, but these will make power, and lots of it. Those jdm headers all you get is a name.
Best exhaust for n/a? just a straight pipe back with a turn down. Not the greatest for stealth, but it'll make the most power, 2.5" with those cams.
You'll be set though dude, that's a very good list.
Just a side note, the jun valvetrain is nice, but very expensive. The setup I talked about earlier will cost like 1/2 as much, but give the same, if not better results, portflow's are actually a bit stiffer then the jun's. But again, bigger is not always better.
If you've got the money, go jun's, but the portflow/itr setup will work just as good.

[TedR719]

I hear that the JUN ECU is really the best for their setup, but I'll do more research on that. The JUN valvetrain is alot more expensive but I'm willing to spend the extra cash to keep it all JUN.

The only question now is do I have to run a stright pipe for these cams, if so can I pass emmisons if thats the case?

[Mr. NoSkills]

yeah, I'd really suggest using a straight pipe with this setup.
In a way, think of these cams as a mini turbo haha.

Jun ecu will be your best bet without a standalone, your totally right. I used to know a guy who could chip your ecu with this program, I'll see if I can find his number.

About passing emissions? I honestly can't tell you with that straight pipe. You can always just put the stock exhaust/cat back on when emissions comes around, then swap it back out for your real exhaust when your done. This is what I've done a few times, but don't tell anyone haha.

[Brian]

Dude, don't worry about emissions. I know a guy ;).

[2000SiVTEC]

Originally posted by futuresi
I hear that the JUN ECU is really the best for their setup, but I'll do more research on that. The JUN valvetrain is alot more expensive but I'm willing to spend the extra cash to keep it all JUN.

The only question now is do I have to run a stright pipe for these cams, if so can I pass emmisons if thats the case?


I can tell you this much, if you are going to buy an ECU save and buy a hondata. The JUN one is not cheap so it wouldn't take much more saving to get the hondata. You will be much better off with it and it is tunable. You dont have to run a straight pipe, but it wouldn't be a bad idea. Personally I wold buy some other pistons than the Type-r's if I am going to spend the money, but I guess whatever works. i would just up the compression a little more than those would. I say go with the skunk 2 manifold I have haerd good things about them especially when all the imperfections are worked out of them. Oh and don't forget a vital part of N/A and that is headwork. IF you want to get solid 14's I think you will need some headwork done...........:M:

[Brian]

With a 1.6l you will definetly need headwork. Especially if you want to make max power up top.

As for the ecu, well a jun would be tuned for sea level which wont do much for you up here. honestly EVERYONE need a standalone up here with a highly modified car. Just no other way to tune...

[93BlackHatchSI]

Originally posted by 99SIVTEC
Dude, don't worry about emissions. I know a guy ;).


Yea just come see me and I will hook you up homie. ;) :D :cool:

[TedR719]

Civic Type-R's are $330 with piston rings, if I can find a better piston for around that price and have a c/r where I can run pump gas let me know ;) The compression ratio is about 11:1:1 from what I hear and running any higher without tuning is not too good considering I drive alot...


Originally posted by 2000SiVTEC



I can tell you this much, if you are going to buy an ECU save and buy a hondata. The JUN one is not cheap so it wouldn't take much more saving to get the hondata. You will be much better off with it and it is tunable. You dont have to run a straight pipe, but it wouldn't be a bad idea. Personally I wold buy some other pistons than the Type-r's if I am going to spend the money, but I guess whatever works. i would just up the compression a little more than those would. I say go with the skunk 2 manifold I have haerd good things about them especially when all the imperfections are worked out of them. Oh and don't forget a vital part of N/A and that is headwork. IF you want to get solid 14's I think you will need some headwork done...........:M:

[TedR719]

Head work will be done eventually...

I think the Hondata would be a good choice as well...


Originally posted by 99SIVTEC
With a 1.6l you will definetly need headwork. Especially if you want to make max power up top.

As for the ecu, well a jun would be tuned for sea level which wont do much for you up here. honestly EVERYONE need a standalone up here with a highly modified car. Just no other way to tune...

[TedR719]

Cool Thanks, you ever get that tranny...

Originally posted by 93BlackHatchSI



Yea just come see me and I will hook you up homie. ;) :D :cool:

[93BlackHatchSI]

yea any time. Yes I got the tranny now I just need to get money for a clutch whats the web site for the clutch you got?
;) :D

[Maverick]

We can get you a good price on RPS turbo clutches, a stage 1 would do just fine for you. (brian has a stage 2, so stage 1 would be perfect). Let me know if you need a clutch or any of the other parts you wanted. Later. :cool:Originally posted by 93BlackHatchSI
yea any time. Yes I got the tranny now I just need to get money for a clutch whats the web site for the clutch you got?
;) :D

[93BlackHatchSI]

Originally posted by 94hatch
We can get you a good price on RPS turbo clutches, a stage 1 would do just fine for you. (brian has a stage 2, so stage 1 would be perfect). Let me know if you need a clutch or any of the other parts you wanted. Later. :cool:

Yea I need a clutch how much is it? Brian how does the clutch feel any bad experiaces? Please let me know thanks. ;)

[TedR719]

How much are the Stage 1 going for? I only saw the 2,3 on the buy...

Chris I got my clutch from www.coximport.com for the Exedy. Nothing but great service, get your clutch in 7 days from when you ordered, seen it done 3 times ;)

[93BlackHatchSI]

Cool thanks Ted I really need a clutch and Skunk2coilovers really fast.:D

[Maverick]

Sorry, they only have the Stage 2 right now, which will also work just fine. Price on that for the D16Z6 is $240 in the groupbuy. We can get you some Skunk2's for a good deal as well.

[93BlackHatchSI]

cool i'm going to get the RPS or Exedy clutch. Which one do you think is better? I'm going to get the clutch and Coilovers next week some time so please tell me whichone you think is better thanks.;) :D :cool:

[Brian]

The RPS clutch is far better hands down....

[93BlackHatchSI]

cool is there a web site i can read about it?
:Hook:

[TedR719]

RPS is not by far the better clutch! I'm pretty sure you hear about alot of happy customers with Exedy. Not bashing the RPS but it is no where near the better clutch, but the price you really cant beat.

Also the Exedy has a real nice pedal pressure, just barley stiffer over stock...now you cant say that with your RPS. Also the Stage 2 might be a little too much if you just have bolt-ons. Exedy clutchs are also completly made of brand new material. I of course love the clutch I had with the d16 and now my b16....


Originally posted by 99SIVTEC
The RPS clutch is far better hands down....

[HONDA GHANDI]

Hey ted, have your buddy call me back tomorrow, he called and I couldnt get to the phone in time. He didnt leave me a number to call him back though.

[Brian]

Originally posted by futuresi
RPS is not by far the better clutch! I'm pretty sure you hear about alot of happy customers with Exedy. Not bashing the RPS but it is no where near the better clutch, but the price you really cant beat.

Also the Exedy has a real nice pedal pressure, just barley stiffer over stock...now you cant say that with your RPS. Also the Stage 2 might be a little too much if you just have bolt-ons. Exedy clutchs are also completly made of brand new material. I of course love the clutch I had with the d16 and now my b16....


I'm sorry, but for the money the RPS is a far better clutch hands down. if you ahve more than simple bolt-ons, like say BOOSt then the exedy doesn't come close. Besides for the money you get a clutch that can stay with your car no matter what upgrades you plan. Not bashing the exedy in any way, just stating that the RPS is a LOT more expensive unit and can hold a lot more power, and this price is increadible so why pass it up....

[2000SiVTEC]

I can honestly say that an RPS, clutchmasters, or ACT are are better clutches dollar for dollar when compared to exedy's. In saying it has good pedal pressure means nothing really. Lok at my Clutchmasters stage 3, stock pedal pressure but it grips liek a motha......I would take an RPS if those were my 2 choices. The RPS price is incredible like stated before, I know I wouldnt pass it up.

The clutch being made of new material really means nothing either. In fact it may wear out a little faster. I am sure there is a reason that RPS uses a stock disc witha heavy duty pressure plate and Vise Versa for the clutch masters..........Just my .02 though.....:Beer:

[TedR719]

I agree that for $240 dollars I don't think you can come close to a better clutch...

As far as the Exedy holding boost it's been proven with people running a turboed Si's to hold up well and not have the slightest sign of slipage ;) There is also the "second stage" that will hold any of our boosted cars.

Also you will see them being used in some real cars like the Skylines and stuff over in Japan, so Exedy can hold it's ground too...

Pedal Pressure I think makes a differnce in feeling comfortable with your car, you dont want to be pressing in a monster clucth everytime when your going down the street or in rush hour traffic.

And yes Steve I'm very impressed with your Clutchmaster Stage 3 but it would be too much of a clutch for just for your set up right now, luckly your be boosting. Dont want and differentials busting on ya again ;)

[2000SiVTEC]

I dont think it was really the clutch that did it. I think it was more or less 2 years of drag racing adn 6000 rpm launches that caused it to break. It just helped along.....

[Absubtle1]

I am really impressed w/ our B16a stroker kit. Strokering a B16a into almost a 1.9 liter.
A very serious VTEC puller. Dynoed a B16a stroker w/ stock cams stock intake, but only w/ header. It pulled 214 hp at flywheel.

It is the motor we have in our racecar, w/ boost ( a lot), we hit over 670 hp to wheels.

Just putting in my 2 cents, but its one kick ass motor.:eek:

[Mark_H]

670hp on a B16? Who's car is it in? One of PFI's cars? Last I heard(which was a while back) Brent had 650hp w/ an H23 Block(I think) and he had the most power out of everybody.
Maybe it's just been too long since I talked to those guys.
M

[newt2]

I'm going to give the Clutch Specialties clutch a try. I drove lundgrens (owner of www.groupbuycenter.com) car a while back and I REALLY liked his clutch. It felt stock but grabed a lot harder.

I think they use a stock honda clutch with stiffer springs and a stronger plate. The clutch felt OEM.

[Brian]

I didn't know Lundgren was the owner of GBC?

[newt2]

Yeah he lives in Castle Rock. He just moved here about 6 months ago. Very cool guy w/ a nice 8psi JRSC setup.

[SC-MECHAM-WS6]

life without boost is like like without pu$$y. :D

[Absubtle1]

Brent is past the 700 hp mark, but it is not usuable power. Just like w/ our B16 stroker, we dont run 30 pounds of boost because traction is an issue as it is.

Brent has gone through couple motors. I think the latest is a H22 head on an H23 block... and oh yeah lots of boost.
But he is doing so good right now. He has a good setup. We raced him at Rocky Mountain Nationals and he beat us by about 3 tenths. Nothing can replace displacement.
Our car was ahead at eigth mile, but he pulled a lot harder than us.
We just have an air to air small intercooler right now, but Brent has air to water intercooler.
But we are on the same team, so all smiles.:D

http://www.pfispeed.com/interface.htm

Cheers
:Beer:

[TedR719]

Well since I will be finsihing up school here that means extra $500 a month to spend...b20 maybe :D You s/c guys are going to slaughter me if I don't go big!

94hatch I know you did your research on the crvtec build up. What all is needed?

*b20b block
b16 head
*b20 crank (?)
*Rods/Pistons
*GSR Tranny (B16?)
ECU
*Intake Mainifold (b16? work) (skunk2 GSR in future)

[HONDA GHANDI]

Look here. it is a good place to start. CRVTEC (http://www.crvtec.com/index.php?section=links)

[B20civic]

B20 shortblocks aren't cheap and rather hard to come by. i got my JDM B20B for $900 shipped :eek:

[SC-MECHAM-WS6]

I'm a boost guy personally...

[V8SpankR]

Originally posted by SC-MECHAM-WS6
I'm a boost guy personally...

:Beer: here,here :Beer:

[TedR719]

Well I'm keeping it all motor for the reason that this will be my beater for a long time! Once I get my carrer going my next car is going to be a luxary/sports car.

Here is the set up now

Skunk2 Stage II cams
Supertech Valves (flat)
Supertech Springs/Retainers
Skunk2 Cam Gears
Skunk2 ECU (9500rpm)
Fields FUEL/VTEC controller

On Order:
Apex-i N1 cat back exhaust
Test Pipe
Magnacor 8.5mm Wires

All of this on my returns :) Now where is hell is my W2's :mad:

Hoping for consistant 15.5's

[jeffro]

you can write a book on what you should do check out
www.importreview.com in the forum section or just e-mail
jeff with your budget and how fast you want to go in all motor trim

[TedR719]

Yeah thats where I have pulled most of my info is from Jeff. Very good info there...


Originally posted by jeffro
you can write a book on what you should do check out
www.importreview.com in the forum section or just e-mail
jeff with your budget and how fast you want to go in all motor trim