natural or synthetic?

[DrJones]

Which do you use? For those unsure, here are some popular ones and where they fit:

Natural
Meguairs Gold Class
Meguiars #26
Zymol*
Turtlewax*
Blitz
Souveran
P21S/S100
Anything that says Carnauba

synthetic
Zaino
Klasse
Blackfire
4 Star Platinum

*=If you are using these you really need to be schooled in the ways of waxing

[Talonstylz]

I have the Meguiars Gold Class, it usually turns out pretty good when im done with it :) I wanna try zaino though, ive seen the results of quite a few good zaino coats and damn it looks shweet!

[exciv2000]

haven't used anything but blackfire since being schooled by DrJones

[DrJones]

are you using the new BF or the old formula?

[Bedlam]

I like to use K-marts generic paste wax on my car. It even comes in a little tin can with a big "K" on the side...smells like cherries too! :)

-Bedlam

[b18cya-T]

i tried zymol once...it sucked...i didnt know if i was doing it wrong or what.

since then it's been Gold Class all the way

[exciv2000]

still have the old stuff, plan on buying the new stuff here soon.

[Kwando]

Zaino all the way.

[phil]

just used up the last of the turtle wax and on to meguirs from now on.

[alpha]

still testing stuff, seeing which i like best.

[Nick@DParadise]

Why don't you guys give einszett a try? The Glanz Wax is a sythetic so you will get good druability. It leaves a nice deep shine.

[Bedlam]

Originally posted by Nick@DParadise
Why don't you guys give einszett a try? The Glanz Wax is a sythetic so you will get good druability. It leaves a nice deep shine.

Hrmm..never heard of that one. Are you a dealer? owner/operator of the site in your sig? Do you know DrJones? :)

Welcome to HAI regardless..

-Bedlam

[xain]

i waxed with meguires last night. looks nice, and it filled in the scratch that i got on my hood from trying to squeegy my car. *insert flame here*

wish it would do the same for the cuts that are in my paint from when the dealer was touching up the pin striping :(

[Nick@DParadise]

Originally posted by Bedlam
Hrmm..never heard of that one. Are you a dealer? owner/operator of the site in your sig? Do you know DrJones? :)

Welcome to HAI regardless..

-Bedlam
Sorry I missed your post.

Einszett is pretty new to the States, although it has been in Germany since 1936. I am the regional distributer for the line. Einszett has a complete car care system. This includes everything from carnauba-based polish to synthetic wax to bug cleaner.

Yes, I am the owner of Detailers Paradise. DrJones and myself exchanged emails prior to my site going live. I know FULLTHROTTLE from my S2000 days and he connected me with DrJones.

[CSMsi311]

i prefer not to wax my car or even to wash it. I let the dirt and bugs do all the protecting.

[Talonstylz]

lol

[95GSRB18C]

i use Meguairs Gold Class on my car. brings out the shine pretty good. I just dont think i have enough clear coat on my car to bring it out enough.

[BluByU]

Klasse and Zaino seem to own me at the moment.

[xvir2ualx]

Definately at this altitude, you need to be using a polymer base wax. The UV rays up here are so powerful that they will burn through any natural wax in 6 weeks EASILY... Polymer wax at this altitude will last you almost 5 months. I use this stuff called Nu Finish (orange bottle). Great product, and trust me ive used just about every wax on the market.

[john]

Which is better, natural or synthetic? Better as in longer lasting shine & protection?

[xvir2ualx]

Synthetic at this altitude is best for protection. You might get a SLIGHTLY more glossy finish using a natural wax, but its the high speed polishing that makes the paint look good, not what type of wax you use. So if you have access to a high speed rotary polisher, use it... then just follow up with a polymer base wax and itll look brand new and itll also last.

[DrJones]

Originally posted by xvir2ualx
I use this stuff called Nu Finish (orange bottle). Great product, and trust me ive used just about every wax on the market.

How does that suff compare to 1z glanz, zaino or Klasse SG?

[DrJones]

Originally posted by xvir2ualx
Synthetic at this altitude is best for protection. You might get a SLIGHTLY more glossy finish using a natural wax, but its the high speed polishing that makes the paint look good, not what type of wax you use. So if you have access to a high speed rotary polisher, use it... then just follow up with a polymer base wax and itll look brand new and itll also last.

I'm not sure I agree with some of that... i've done a few cars by hand and gotten absolutly amazing results... plus the average person shouldn't even think about picking up a rotary... i've seen many people use one thinking it was safe and end up with much bigger problems than they were initially trying to fix. Of course if you've used one before or have someone there with you who has a lot of expierence than it's a whole nother issue.

In my opinion a buffer should only be used when trying to fix defects in the paint... if you have a newer car with a pretty nice finish then there is definatly not a need for a rotary. In this case there can still be a substantial difference in how the car looks... and that difference will lie completly in what products you decide to use and how you apply them.

It's true that there are several 'waxes' out there that can make your paint look good, but many of them provide totally different looks. There are so many different properties of a wax that you want to look at when chosing the right one. In most cases this choice is what makes the difference from a just detailed car that looks a little cleaner than other stuff on the road, and the just detailed car that makes people stare and take notice of your fine finish.

Also, (again this depends A LOT on which products you are dealing with) in general it's the synthetic products that give more of a shine, reflection, and gloss, while the natural products are what add depth and that wet look. There are a lot of products that cross those lines (on both sides) but I think most of them follow those rules.

I'm no expert this is just comming from my personal expierence and the expert's who's knowledge i've researched.

If you want to see that it's not all about the rotary and how wax does make a difference just wait untill Bedlam posts the pics of his Evo.

[xvir2ualx]

Im not saying that using wax wont affect the finish... All im saying is that if you use a high speed polisher on a car that already doesnt have a smooth/glossy surface, then it will make it look MUCH nicer. Wax will make the car look slightly better, but to remove fine scratches/swirl marks then you need to go with the polisher, and after using one the swirl marks and fine scratches dissapear--->better looking paint.

A general rule of thumb however, is that you should get your car polished with a high speed polisher every 1-2 years... So if you car is older than 1-2 years, it will look/feel significantly better with the polish.

[DrJones]

if people are curious what the difference is. Here is a picture of a truck (I didn't detail it, it's from another board) that a guy did with two of the best natural waxes availible, s100 and souveran

http://www.autopia.org/gallery/data/500/9178pass_side_-_day.jpg

You can see that the reflection in the paint looks really really deep. It just sort of sucks you in.

Here is a synthetic product:

http://www.mines.edu/students/p/pfchrist/jason/jason7.jpg

http://www.mines.edu/students/p/pfchrist/jason/jason11.jpg

It's not a totally fair comparison, because they are two different colors (aren't even the same model or type of vehicle) but you can see the difference. The 2nd one has more of a candied shine to it. Both have a reflection, but it's a different kind of reflection.

What kind of abrasives do you sugest are in the polish for it to be done with a rotary every 1-2 years? Clearcoats aren't the thickest things in the world...

I'll agree though, buffers can do a great job, but they aren't magical devices, and they aren't necessary. Some of the best detailed cars I have ever seen were done by a guy who's been doing it for 9+ years. He does everything by hand, regardless of how bad the car is. His results are much much better than a lot of the people who use a rotary.

[DrJones]

Originally posted by xvir2ualx
I use this stuff called Nu Finish (orange bottle). Great product, and trust me ive used just about every wax on the market.

I have to admit I have heard of Nu Finish but have never actually used it. I'm open to trying just about anything and everything. However I did some searching on another board and i'm not sure if it'd be worth it. There were a few people who swore by it and said they've been using it for 5 years with no problems... but some others (Including detailers I REALLY respect) who didn't have a lot of praise for it..

"Nu Finish (the correct, alternate spelling you'll come across) is a bad choice IMO. I don't know about comparative pricing in the US, but up here it's priced about the same as other, better products. No price advantage. It reeks of kerosene to high heaven - don't get your nose too close to the opening of the bottle. It stains trim worse than other cleaner waxes. Tests have shown it to be very solvent-heavy - besides being a cleaner wax, I would not count on this wax to be very friendly to any glaze you may have applied.

I've also found durability to be pretty mediocre compared to other stuff. Claiming 1 year durability or "once a year" use doesn't help its credibility either. TW also makes this claim, and neither Nu Finish or TW lasts this long in the real world.

I think that for just a few lousy dollars more you could get a superior product that doesn't make ridiculous claims and is more pleasant to work with. How long are you going to have to live with every wax you buy? How many coats can you apply from one 16oz bottle? One bottle of wax will hang around in your detailing bag for much longer than you'd think unless you really slop it on. Pastes even longer...."

Do you have any problems with it on trim? One post was about a guy asking questions because Nu Finish basically ruined his trim after a few years of use. Other people said it stained pretty bad and after a short time lost most of it's gloss.

Are there any other synthetic products you have compared it to? What are the main advantages?

Nothing beats first hand expierence, but these guys have been doing this much longer than I have... There's a few of them who's opinion i trust more than my own.

[DrJones]

Originally posted by john
Which is better, natural or synthetic? Better as in longer lasting shine & protection?

xvir2ualx is right, synthetic products almost always offer much better protection. The main reason is because they last. Natural waxes have a fairly low melting point (most around 250 degress F if i remeber correctly) compared to what the surface of you car will sometimes reach. The wax ends up evaporating off the surface.

Synthetic products (by design) have a much higher melting point (some over 400 degrees) which is why they usually last longer. They simply stick around. Many of them also offer more protection against stuff like acid rain and UV rays because they are literally designed in a lab, and those properties can be added when the product is being made.

As for which shines best... if anyone answers that question then they are wrong... it's a total opiniated thing. It depends on tons of factors including, color, paint quality, paint brand, driving conditions, storing conditions, application method, users preference and many others. Some people like the natural look, some people like the synthetic look. There are even lots of people (such as myself) who see a big advantage in using both. Do a few coats of a synthetic product and follow it up with a coat of a natural wax on top.

If your looking for an overall winer then a good place to look might be the Guru Reports Wax Test (http://www.gurureports.org/). They looked at a ton of products (both synthetic and natural) and ranked them according to what they thought was best.

Thier list was:

1- Zaino (A-)
2- P21S (B+)
3- Klasse (B)

However even the author of that said:

"I'm getting really tired of having to continually explain the report to folks, especially when they may or may not have even read it...but, here it goes:

1) "The product rankings" - I HATE that particular chart!!!! I begged the publisher to not post such a thing, because I knew it would be misinterpretted, and boy, was I right.

Example: I got a genuinely ANGRY phone call from someone who said that "you are a bunch of idiots and I want my money back! How can you rate Mothers Cleaner Wax higher than their California Gold product?!"

I calmly explained to the gentleman that there was less than 0.01 points difference between the two products, and that a simple shift from a + to a neutral on a single grade could have swayed the results in either direction.

He said, "Oh, I didn't look at the actual numbers! How about that? Well, I guess I'll keep using my Calfiornia Gold, then. Thanks!"

THE CHART IS NOTHING MORE THAN A LIST OF ALL OF THE PRODUCTS TESTED AND THEIR "FINAL" GRADES. THERE'S MUCH MORE INFO IN THE DETAILS OF EACH PRODUCT - DO NOT RELY ON THE CHART FOR YOUR ONE-STOP INFORMATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, I begged the publisher to remove the chart, but since he footed the $150k for printing/production, he has final say in what happens.


2) Grades were weighted as follows:

Overall Performance: 40% (averaged from 80 individual grades over 8 weeks)
Durability: 30%
Ease of Use: 20% (10% for app, 10% for removal)
Availability: 10%

When you see each product's grades, you'll notice there are 5 total grades - let's look at one, for example...

Armor All Protective Barrier Car Wax (paste): Final Grade: B- 2.73

Durability = C+ (30% of the grade)
Performance = C+ (40% of the grade)
Ease of Use = A- (20% of the grade)
Availability = A (10%) of the grade)

Summary: 70% of the grade = C+, 30% of the grade = a strong A-. Add all of them, average them any you wind up with 2.73 and a B-

This does not mean that it's a "better" product than a product like Souveran. Souveran kicked AA's *** in performance.

Again, the "chart" burns me, and I have to explain this constantly, b/c people don't want to read the "how's" the "why's" and the "what's" of the report. They want to be like Bret and look at the pictures, then write or call me to tell me what idiot's me and my staff are.


3) DO NOT LET THE REPORT DETERMINE WHAT PRODUCTS YOU USE!!!

I've said this a thousand times - literally! The report is a subjective/objective guide to product performance in nearly identical situations. It should serve as a relative comparison, with the caveat that if you're happy with your current product(s), keep using them.

In every test, one product comes in first place, and another comes in last place. That's the nature of a test! Think about Car&Driver, and when they test a Ferrari, a Porsche, a Viper and an AMG Mercedes. All of them are fantastic cars in their own right, but one hast to come in 4th, one in 3rd, one in 2nd and one in 1st.

Unlike Car&Driver, we didn't have millions of dollars in ad revenue "helping" our decisions - we used the best testing methods available to us, and left it at that.



4) The Products and the Audience were not designed with Autopian's in mind!

We had to leave out several products due to space constraints, and we had to take a serious look at who would actually be interested in the report.

In reality, Autopia is a very small website - when we published the report, Autopia had about 3,000 members, of which about 5 actually bought reports from us. Had we written/designed the test with Autopia in mind, we'd have bored and/or scared away the rest of the world!

We're all considered "nuts" here by outsiders - think about all of the comments that you get from your neighbors, etc. about how "obsessed" we are with car care. How many people of the general public would want to read a 54 page report that was Autopian in nature?

I love getting calls from people who say something like, "I really appreciate the report and the info in it - some of it was above my head, but I understood most of it, and I learned about microfiber towels, and tricks for removing defects! Thanks!"

Realize, that of the 8,500 - 9,000 reports we've sold, less than 100 of them have been sold to "pro" detailers and/or Autopian's. 99.9% of the reports are sold to average Joe's and people who are enthusiast detailers. That was our audience.

Finally, as I mentioned earlier, we had space constraints to deal with, so a few products didn't make the cut. Products like S100, Platinum, etc. missed the boat because they were similar (if not identical) to other products in performance.

I hate to brag, but I have nearly 1,000 e-mails from people regarding P21S wax and how they had never heard of it before our report came out...I wonder, how many of you heard about it through our report?

Ok, enough ranting....sorry for the sermon.

BTW, Lemon Pledge finished dead last."

[JasonC8301]

Nice posts Dr. Jones :cool:

:guns: Nu Finish. This stuff sucks at protecting the finish. It sure cleaned the finish well (but not as a good as a true paint polish.) but didn't leave behind much protection. On a beater, it lasted all of 2 months before the paint was back to the normal beater self.

There are many more superior products out there compared to Nu Finish.

Currently in box of no use is
Meguiar's Gold Class paste wax
Gallon of Meguiar's #26 Hi-tech yellow Wax
Quart of Meguiar's Cleaner Wax
Armor All paste wax (my first can of wax)
Z-best wax
Rain-X (22 ounce bottle)
Turtlewax
Turtlewax Rubbing Compound (red can)
A decent selection of Valugard's waxes and such.

In my bag of tricks
Zaino (new Z2/Z5, and either Z1 or ZFX, whichever I want to use or have the time to use)
Klasse AIO and SG

For those garage queens who recieve a lot of attention
Pinnacle Souveran paste

Awaiting test
Platinum Ultimate Paint Protectant
Poorboy's EX sealant

Waxs I have used
One Grand Blitz (gave to a friend)
Blackfire I (used up the samples)
P21S (gave to a friend, I already had souveran and he liked P21S so much)
Finish First (gave to a friend, nice results on red)

(there are probably a lot more, these are the ones that came to mind.)

So I narrowed it down to two selections

Daily drivers - Zaino or Klasse (whichever strikes my mood)

Garage Queens - Pinnacle Souveran

EDIT - About those Hi-speed rotary buffers, if you maintain a finish after buffing a car out, you only need to maintain the finish and not go over with the hi-speed buffer anytime soon. I believe if you polish with a hi-speed every year or two with a compound and wool cutting pads you will be at high risk for paint failure in under 10 years.

Sure washing swirls will occure, a light polishing with a dual action or orbital buffer will solve those problem quickly.

A hi-speed rotary buffer in the hands of the inexperience is just inviting disaster that will require someone else to fix with lots of paint being removed or in the worst case scenario a repaint or molding and trim replacement.

[DrJones]

Just ordered my EX and Spray & Whipe... hope they live up to their hype.... so the EX is a synthetic copy of a natural wax, correct (Like a man made carnauba)? It seems to have a durability between the other synthetics and the naturals from what i've read.

[JasonC8301]

Poorboy's EX is an amnio functional resin with carnauba (from site.)

The durability, well an estimate would be 4-6 weeks on a daily driver. A little longer than a nautral wax, but not even close to a full synthetic product like Klasse or Zaino.

I will post results of my feelings on EX and Platinum UPP once I get some testing done (currently rain, all week!)

Looking foward to your results Dr. Jones.

[xain]

you two sound like scientists :)

[JasonC8301]

xain, well just a little.

I tried the Poorboy's EX sealant/carnauba mix this morning.

Test subject - 2001 Toyota Corolla
Color - Sand/beige
Miles - 25,000

The car is leased so it is treated like crap. Doesn't get washed or cleaned out often.....wait EVER.

9:30 - 10:30 or so, wash the car
12:30-2:30 - Clay the car

Here is what my clay went though (well my Meguiar's C-2000 body shop overspray clay anyway.)

Stay away from Meguiar's clay at all costs. Stick with Mother's Zaino, or Clay Magic clay.

[JasonC8301]

at 3 AM I start to polish. The hood was the worst, somehow the hood was the only panel to have swirls. I took my Makita 9227C rotary polisher with a foam polishing pad and some 3M Finesse It II Finishing Material (medium polish) and removed those swirls. I then took out my Porter Cable dual action polisher with a foam cutting pad and some swirl amrk remover and went over the rest of the car including the hood. Made the surface even nicer (clay made it smooth, but the swirl mark remover added more to that feel.)

My Porter Cable off the roof. (Never try this on your paint, this car is leased so it was pretty trashed, did it for effect :D )

[JasonC8301]

Finished polishing at 5 AM, then put on a foam finishing pad onto my PC. I applied Poorboy's EX sealant. It went on nicely. Finished in 22 minutes. I let it dry for an hour and a half. I buffed off the residue with a koala cotton towel and final buffed it with a microfiber cloth (not those cheap ones at the wal-mart type store, www.pakshak.com )

The residue came off easily. There were two or three spots were it was appied heavily but those came off in the final buff with the microfiber cloth.

The shine is nice, I thought after polishing the paint, the paint couldn't look any better. Now it looks wet and glossier. The feeling is also very slick, not as slick as Zaino though. The smell of EX ain't so bad, actually its pretty good. Let me run into the garage and take whiff. Smells well kinda of like candy.

Durability will be observed in the coming weeks.

[DrJones]

Looks good... how would you say the shine/slickness compares to SG? Seems that's the trend now is to AIO + EX... maybe i'll try AIO + SG + EX when mine comes in (which should hopefully be today)

[DrJones]

Originally posted by JasonC8301

My Porter Cable off the roof. (Never try this on your paint, this car is leased so it was pretty trashed, did it for effect :D )

So how many miles you got on that thing? (The PC not the car) :D

[JasonC8301]

PC, its been all over, I'd say 10,000 miles easy with 200+ hours of usage.

I had a talk with with some well respected people today on EX. I am not hoping for much durability. From what I heard today, the most I will get out of this product on this daily driver bashed, abused, leased car is 4 weeks TOPS, 3 weeks average.

I would go AIO+SG on a car, then try EX straight up alone on the trunk lid. see how durability stacks up. I will do that tonight, physically, strip down the trunk with alcohol and water, then hand rub down with 3M FI-II, then just EX.

[xjayxSleek]

Zaino is the bomb diggity...

I also liked the results of P21S

[DrJones]

Originally posted by JasonC8301

I had a talk with with some well respected people today on EX. I

Was srl a member of that group? Or maybe

[JasonC8301]

I talked to srl prior about EX in a chat. He pretty much said the same things I heard today. I will AIM/IM/AOL whatever the heck they call it on more details, kinda hard for the average joe to explain (VOC's, solvent grades, sheeting, water tension, etc. etc.).

I saw the stuff in action today during some pretty heavy rain showers, tight little beads, at speed would roll up the hood (50+) but I will have to see the results during sunlight hours with sun. The Zaino would bead up and roll off at a slight slope.

Updates soon.

[xain]

my car needs attention sooo bad. jones, jason, you have any detailing friends up here in washington that you can hook me up with?

[john]

I'd love to take part in the poll, but I don't wax my car. As a matter of fact, I don't even wash it...

[stu]

I'd love to take part in the poll, but I don't wax my car. As a matter of fact, I don't even wash it...

Well good thing this thread is only over two minus one years old. lol

[David]

I'm sorry to hear about your car Stu.

[stu]

I'm sorry to hear about your car Stu.
Thanks Dave, hopefully I get it up and running soon enough.

[David]

you can edit my posts, but you cant edit my freedom FROM MY ASS.


;NutKick; hehe

[V8SpankR]

^^^^^^^^

Sorry,I was bored. ;)

[David]

gah! I didn't even know you were a mod :D

[mrchris1979]

I have a question regarding some detail work I need for my ride. Please check your PM. Thanks.

Which do you use? For those unsure, here are some popular ones and where they fit:

Natural
Meguairs Gold Class
Meguiars #26
Zymol*
Turtlewax*
Blitz
Souveran
P21S/S100
Anything that says Carnauba

synthetic
Zaino
Klasse
Blackfire
4 Star Platinum

*=If you are using these you really need to be schooled in the ways of waxing